Even sven -- show off your public education here

In a thread on homeschooling, I took exception to even sven’s insulting and poorly supported characterization of homeschooling as the ultimate in selfishness.

Even sven took exception to my taking exception, and with characteristic precision and brilliance posted a whine at the end of a PIT thread on a totally unrelated subject. Since she was apparently unable to figure out how to start a brand new thread, I figured that I would help her out. Her complaint, in its entirety, was:

My response will follow, once I become bored enough to pay her any more attention.

My understanding has always beens:

IMHO = Unsupported opinions

GD = supported opinions.

There are any number of topics we have covered in both forums, and those topics have recieved very different treatments.

Even sven, in the homeschooling thread in question you posted many words, but you didn’t post much substance. What I think Spititus was trying to do was to strip down all the rhetoric and discover if there was an actual arguement in there somewhere. He didn’t find one, so he posted that.

Surely, as a senior in college you are familiar with constructing an essay? Thesis/Supporting arguement/supporting arguement/supposting arguement . . .repeat as needed? In the other thread you insulted a bunch of people–called them catagorically selfish–and then failed to present any real evidence to back up that claim. Because your post was so wordy, the only way to demonstrate that there wasn’t an real support amoung the anecdotes was to discect it. You really shouldn’t be getting upset over this: the sort of critique Spiritus gave it is exactly the sort of critique a supportive teacher would have given, and if you pay attention, you will be able to give reasons for why you don’t like homeschooling, not just the fact that you don’t like it. In fact, your second post came much closer to being a well-reasoned arguement for supporting something, although what you were saying was “homeschooling is bad for the kids involved” not “homeschooling is the act of a selfish bastard.”

In a final piece, the only thing that I found truly irritating–as opposed to simply unskilled–about your approach in the Homeschooling thread were your repeated reference to your political orientation and how that makes people disagree with you. It seemed to me that you were either 1) assuming that Spiritus knew your political orientation and hence was targeting you because of that or b) you were hoping you could start a fight about your political orientation which would make Spiritus look like an ass. Now, I don’t know if you were really trying to do either of those things, but I would suggest you avoid bringing up your political oprientation when it is irrelevant because that is what it looks like you are doing. And looks like is all that matters in written communication.

Okay – time to respond.

sven you ignorant slut.

The presentation of a written argument is the language, syntax, formatiing, spelling, formal structure, etc. I defy you to find a single reference to such elements in my responses to you. The “subject matter” of your jeuvenile diatribe included the thesis “Home schooling is as selfish as it gets.” It also included a morass of irrelevancies, anecdotes, and half-ideas which did nothing to support that thesis. My “method of attack” was to demonstrate just how fatuous and ignorant I found that “subject matteer”.

I wish I could say that I was surprised that you can’t tell the difference between form and content, but I find it depressingly predictable. In those few posts of yours which I have noticed, yuo seem far too fixated upon what you feel to allow things like accuracy or logic to interfere.

I exposed your position for ridicule. I am not surprised that you did not enjoy the demonstration, but that is hardly the same as a direct insult. In fact, since direct insults are not allowed in GD I will issue this chalenge:

[li]Find a moderator or administrator of this board who will review the thread and agree that I have crossed the line to personal insult.[/li]
I will immediately apologize for any comments deemed over the line. What I will not do is refrain from exposing prejudice and poor ideas for what they are simply because it might hurt some little girl’s feelings. Now, since we are not in GD: [list]
[li] Your college turns out honors graduates who can neither make a good argument nor recognize the need for one. I find it appalling that the person typing your posts would be honored by any institution which purports to advance reason or knowledge.[/li][li] It is a good thing that you will receive a diploma to prove that you are educated, since it is unllikely that you will ever be able to convince anyone based upon the quality of your thoughts or the depth of your understanding.[/li][li] You are a vaccuous, whiny, insecure little brat who said something stupid in a public room and is angry because somebody pointed it out. Get over it. You have had ample opportunity to retreat from the offensive statement which inspired our exchange. Instead, you have chosen to spend your time calling me names and convincing yourself that you are a martyr. How impressive. I suppose that we can add character development to the list of things which your education has failed to provide.[/li][li] I am sure your mommy has a very nice womb. I would never say anything bad about it.[/li]

[li]The man isn’t interested in granting silent assent to offensive ignorance.[/li][li]He doesn’t mind in the least fighting a bad argument with a better argument.[/li][li]He actually reads what epople write and responds to flaws in their arguments.[/li][li]He enjoys debating, preferrably without kid gloves, and he understands better than even sven what the word “debate” means.[/li][li]He finds delight in many things, including the uncompromising examinatin of ideas[/li][li]Debating with him is perhaps not everyone’s cup of tea.[/li]

GD is what we make it. You, it seems, would like to make it a place where thin-skinned idiots with delusions of martyrdom can float ignorant and ill-formed ideas back and forth in pleasant harmony. I am not interested in cooperating with that vision.

Oh, you apparently don’t know what “troll” means, either.

And you can felch my hairy ass.

Manda Jo
That was another reasoned and reasonable post on your part. What on Earth was it doing in a PIT thread? :wink:

Which one of those are you going to poop out of, even sven? The old one or the new one?

cough Well, in perfect fairness, SM, I don’t think it was totally inappropriate for Sven to post her rant in a “flame Spiritus Mundi!” thread…

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=77559

Eh? :wink:

Carry on. :smiley:

I read through the link. And, I concur with Manda. In Great Debates, people who routinely post involved personal anectdotes get either ignored or dissected. It’s the nature of the forum (not in a negative way, mind you). A personal story may serve to highlight your interest in a subject, but is not considered proof of anything (unless some one has been foolish enough to post something like ‘public school graduates always fail in college’ -then your story would have carried some weight. Not as much as say, a study by the Dept. of Ed. showing the relative % of college grads who came from public schools vs. private vs. homeschooled of course ).

I also agree that you fared better the further you went.

The GD forum is (for me anyhow) a fun place - it reminds me of my college days, where we could pontificate about the weighty matters of the world while downing pizza and beer. But, in a real way, better - we have time to construct our thoughts, marshall our facts, hone our arguments. So, take his posts to you in that thread as constructive criticism, and if it makes you feel better to think about it this way, **prove to him that he’s wrong ** that you can construct a point, and support it with actual evidence.

Don’t feel bad - I routinely am pointing out to folks that links to books by op-ed columnists do ** not** prove any point (other than you can post a link).

Ahhh…and the response is?..

DDG

It wasn’t a “flame Spiritus Mundi” thread. It was a “my semantics are better than your semantics” thread. I won. :slight_smile:

erl
que??

Some of us, my dear friend mouthbreather, can count past two.

You might want to acquire this skill before long:)

Yeah, almost made that distinction myself. “Flame Spiritus’s wonderfully frustrating knowledge of English and its application to deduction” thread.

And, “Ahh…the response is?” is a question on when the target will show up…or if the target will show up.

I bet you a beer she don’t, except maybe to plea for mercy.

[quote]

You’re on. I mean, what kind of loser would call someone a coward and then run away from the fight?
:wink:

Well, I’ve found that being totally and completely reasonable in the Pit gets me one of two reactions: if a person really is a full-of-shit idiot looking to pick a fight then the sweet reason will drive them crazy and provide them with all the rope they need to hang themselves. If, on the other hand, the other person is an intelligent person interested in the topic at hand, well then, the reasonable approach gives us at least a fighting chance of resolving the issue. Overall, it’s a win-win approach and requires only that you have another doper in the house that you can share all the things you want to say with.

Hey, that’s cheating! No fair having a separate outlet for your spleen-venting rants. It makes the rest of us look bad.

Besides, you deprive other people of the righteous catharctic enjoyment of a good slavering sound-off. :wink:

Well, if we get a no-show by midnight tonite we’ll just have to declare a stand-in to argue Sven’s viewpoint.

sigh

Sorry I’m so late for my own party…too busy slaveing away at work. So this is what it is like to be flamed. Funny, because I have never been flamed before. During my years here at the SDMB I have generally been considered at least a decent poster. I am certainly not the best, but I try to add constructivly to the threads. Until one day, I posted an upopular opinion, and then suddenly my friend Spiris Mundi launched what I perceived as an uncalled for attack. I would understand if he was saying that he did not agree with my point. But, alas, he was not. Instead he merely said the equivelent of “your not good enough” and left it at that.

I do not think my first post in that thread was all that out of line for GD. Other people unsupported statements like:

“This sounds (in theory) like a great idea - much better then dropping off your child with someone who commutes 45 minutes from another town to teach your child (and who gets your child to write your town rep and urge them to spend your tax money to put handicap ramps on corners in an area where there are plenty of driveways and are not needed or some other local issue that the teacher wants to take your money to pay for it).” (Now where is the cite that all teachers live 45 minutes away?)

and personal ancedotes such as:

"ok i was home schooled from 4th grade through 8th grade. It was the best thing that my mom could have done for me. she homeschooled my older brothers and they are very sucsesfull in their jobs. I just finished 9th grade at the local public high school and they put me in all the advanced classes and all of them (but french) are too easy for me. if you are worried about your child not going to succsed in life then you have been contaminated by the public school administarors (they loose money if you homeschool). trust me home schooling is much better then public school and private schools (I have been to them too). " (are you going to pick apart their poste to show that they did not, in fact, get an adequete education?)

and even outright misinformation such as:

“You are not allowed to simply pull your children out of regular school and announce, “I am now homeschooling my kids” and then teach them whatever you want. You have to fill out forms, which go on file with your local school district. You are given a standard curriculum by the state school superintendent, and you go by the book. It’s broken down for you, day by day, week by week, in words of one syllable, “cover this”, “now cover this”.” (CA home school are often put in the same catagory as private schools, which have a lot of leway in what they teach).

My post was not unusually bad. Not exactly the shineing moment of my GD career, but not the lowest, either (I reserve the lowest for my few feeble attempts at humor.)

I, not really being interested in fighting (as oppossed to participating in an honest debate) posted a reply explaining why I did the things I did. I stated that I was a political extremest not to start a fight or paint myself a martyr, but rather to illustrate that I understood fully the unpopularity of my positions and underline how irrelevent I understand them to be (and yes, it was related because my position on homeschooling is tied to my position on life in general.) I hoped to leave it at that and allow the debate to continue. But I was wrong. Soon after, I found beloved Mundi tediously deconstructing my humble response.

By this point Mr.Mundi was starting to work my nerves. I produced yet another reply. This time my tone was was all but groveling. I spent a nice chunk of my day of my day off trying to write a post that Soiritus Mundi would approve of. I admitted my mistakes, and tried to leave the door open for further discussion.

This time Mundiman actually got off his high horse and discussed, as opposed to confronted. Too late, by this time I had found a page in the pit, in which another poster seemed to have faced the same treatment I got. I added my (by this time somewhat strong) opinions on Spiritus’s way of contributing to debates.

And so I find myself here.

Yes, Mr. Mundi. I do understand the complex relationship between form and content. That is actually one of the most important things I deal with in my studies. Your argument was not “I don’t like what Madam Sven says about the subject of homeschooling”, but rather “I don’t like how Svensta supports her arguments, regardless of her position”. Notice that Mundi never really takes up a position himself. Most debates I know of go along the lines of “I’m right; your wrong”, not just “your wrong.” Your posts might have been helpful if I were submitting this to a thesis commitee. Except that most thesis committees avoid being that self-important and condenscending.

Now, I have offered you the chance to review some of my scholarly work. Pehaps it would be best to judge my education on works that were created and presented in an academic setting, as opposed to a messege board that I am not really able to devote as much time and energy to as my studies. I think it has already been established that my post was somewhat typical for the setting. My offer stands. My email adress is in my profile, and I would be glad to send you a sample of the work that I produce for school. After that, I will consider you free to debate in a public or private way the merits of my university, my work within that university, and my fitness as a scholar.

I understand if you decline. It appears that your medium is cheap shots.

Can we get a link to that thread, Sven?

even sven:

First, Spiritus isn’t required to attack every bad argument before is is allowed to attack any bad arguements.

Second:

Actually, no. A good debate attacks arguements, not conclusions, and that is exactly what Spititus was doing. In fact, some of the best debates I have ever been involved in have been ones where everyone agreed with the same conclusion but was presenting different, mutually exclusive arguements to defend it. Listen when people take the time to tell you not just that you are wrong but why. Even if they are talking out of thier ass the self-reflection will always do you good.

Third:

Saying “I’m not really trying here, I’m just dicking around, this is only a message board, after all” is really a pretty thin excuse. Many of us do take this message board seriously, and we respect each other enough to assume that everyone else is also a serious debator. To say after a fight “I wasn’t really trying” looks bad, even if it is the truth.

There are many, many subjects that come up in GD that I have an opinion on but which I do not care enough about to sit down and research. So I keep my mouth shut (Or I limit myself to drawing conclusions off of data others have compiled . .naughty naughty). When those topics come up in IMHO, I let rip with all the unsupported wisdom my heart contains.

I think you are a bright young woman, Sven, and I think that what happened here was that you posted an IMHO post in GD and for some reason it caught the eye of Spiritus, and he gave it a GD treatment, which, god knows, stings. (We have all been there, several times. To extend mouthbreather’s analogy, I can poop out of a different orfice every day of the week). I’d chalk this up as a learning experience. This sort of real-time reaction to one’s writing is a first rate composition class that no school can provide.

Lastly, don’t accuse Spiritus of making cheap shots. I rather suspect he has spent more time and energy debateing you than vice-versa. He has read what you have said with great care, and taken the time to write detailed descriptions of the problems he has found with it. His manner may have been abrasive, but it has not been careless or misplaced. Neither of you are the victem here: you are two people involved in a civilized debate.

The link is up in the OP, Miller.

Sorry, just realized it was in the OP.