I completely agree that a few vocal, self-righteous vegetarians make things difficult for the rest of us and may turn off people who would otherwise consider vegetarianism. But I’m with yosemitebabe on this one:
Hell, according to the dictionary, fish isn’t part of the vegetarian diet.
Absolutely. And this is where we vegetarians often fall down. My policy is to keep my mouth shut until someone asks me. But if they do, I make sure they understand that “vegetarian” has a specific meaning.
Actually, Unclebeer, I believe a better forum for whether or not a vegetarian diet is “healthier” would be GD*. And, yes, I know better that to start a GD OR Pit discussion here. I was figuring my 1st comment would get a chuckle out of Yosemite, that’s all. I thought it was funny, but I guess you had to be there. Oh, well. If one of you folks wants to start a GD on this subject, I’ll be there. If not, not.
I honestly meant no harm, Yosemetebabe. I just think it’s not too important to quibble over definitions. Why do you feel the need to tell Myrr that she’s not a “real” vegetarian? All too often I see this kind of pickypants attitude in people about vegetarianism, and it is pointless. It’s usually just an offshoot of one-upmanship.
So, anyway, what’s your favorite flower? I like dandilions. Colorfull, and the leaves have more vitamin A than spinach!
I find the rennet problem a pain too. When I was on my own, in college, I shopped at a health food store that had cheese that was clearly marked rennetless. I’m currently (and temporarily) living with my parents, who are not vegetarians, and couldn’t care less about rennet. When I first came back home, I bought my own rennetless cheese, but when there are five kinds of rennety cheese in the fridge there for the taking, it’s hard to resist. So I admit it, I’m bad, I eat rennet. When I move out again, I’ll stop. Anyway, I would recommend going to your local health food store, they should have rennetless cheese. My local supermarket (i.e., not a chain) also has more specialty products and does carry rennetless cheese, although you have to do some hunting for it. Also, if there are any kosher stores in your area, you might want to check that out. Kashrut requires that meat and dairy be seperate, and by definition, all kosher cheese is rennetless.
I have a practical reason for being so anal. As a ovo lacto vegetarian, I DO NOT eat fish or chicken. Or chicken broth, etc. No exceptions, no Thanksgiving Turkey, nothing.
When too many people are confused about what a vegetarian is and is not, it “muddies the waters” for the rest of us. Many times I had to tell someone that I could not eat the dish they had prepared, because it had fish or chicken, only to have them be offended. They had a friend or relative who claimed to be veggie, and did eat fish or chicken. Therefore, they didn’t see why I could eat fish or chicken as well. Oh, the scenes that I’ve endured. People would become angry, say “Oh come on, it’s only got a little bit of fish! Cousin Lisa is a vegetarian, and she always eats my fish dishes!” “Aunt Louise eats Thanksgiving Turkey - it’s just once a year!” And on and on.
It’s a pain for the rest of us veggies. I just try to educate people as much as possible, because I’m sick of the scenes and the confusion. And even when I am really clear with someone before they prepare a meal with a “vegetarian” in mind (telling them - “no fish or chicken, no fish or chicken”) they still will argue with me! The misinformation on this issue is so wide-spread. Obviously the non-vegetarian has not had to endure all this sort of thing, so they don’t understand the motivations behind people like me getting on a soap box about what might appear to be a “picky detail”. But to vegetarians, it’s not a picky detail.
And, I’ll repeat again, no disrespect from me to anyone who tries to adopt a healthy diet, and who limits their meat intake. All the respect in the world.
Thanks for your response, Kyla. The thing that makes me nuts is that there are so many cheeses that just say “rennet” and don’t specify whether it’s animal or not. It’s enough to drive a guy to veganism. Maybe not a bad idea. I’m sorta headed that way anyway.
Hot damn, that’s clever! I hadn’t thought of that. None of the big health food stores where I live are vegetarian, so I’ll give that a try. Thanks again.
When too many people are confused about what a vegetarian is and is not, it “muddies the waters” for the rest of us. Many times I had to tell someone that I could not eat the dish they had prepared, because it had fish or chicken, only to have them be offended. They had a friend or relative who claimed to be veggie, and did eat fish or chicken. Therefore, they didn’t see why I could eat fish or chicken as well.
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This reminds me: I work in a bookstore, and there is a cafe attached. I get a big discount, so I eat there pretty much every day. Once, I was in the mood for soup, so even though the soup of the day was chicken vegetable, I know that sometimes they actually have more kinds of soup that aren’t listed. I asked, and the owner told me, “Well, we had chicken the other day, we still have some of that.” I explained to her that I was a vegetarian, and her response was, “Oh, then you’ll want the chicken vegetable. There’s less chicken in that.” I was so startled that I didn’t respond for a couple seconds, just stared at her. Fortunately, she figured out what this meant. “Oh, you don’t want any chicken at ALL.” DUH!
But this is my only goofy experience since turning veggie. This probably has to do with the fact that I have spent most of that time in Santa Cruz, California, World’s Most Liberal Town, where a very significant percentage of the population is vegetarian/vegan. Most of my friends at school were veggie, and when I went to Shabbat dinners and such at my school’s Hillel, they were always vegetarian, and there would also be plenty of vegan food as well.
MamaGeph: I actually happen to be male, but I’ll take that as a compliment.
As for the fish part, it is a * well-defined * form of vegetarianism, not me making an exception for something I want to eat. That’s why there’s and actual non-english term for it–“pesco”–rather than just saying, “well, I eat fish”. Notice there isn’t one for people who just eat chicken, or no red meat, because that isn’t vegetarian. I am. I have been since the day I was born. I am also a bit of a stickler for accuracy, which is why I said “ovo-lacto-pesco vegetarian”. That’s vagetarianism, pure and simple.
Course, I still have no idea how to get a decent meal on an airplane (most airlines won’t distinguish between vegetarian and vegan, and vegan airline food is horrendous), but that’s another matter.
As I said before, you can call yourself whatever you wish. And, I guess I am glad that you are always specific, and add “pesco” to your diet defenition. But, I will repeat - “Vegetarian Times”, many other mainstream vegetarian societies, most vegetarian cookbooks, most vegetarian restaurants, etc., and last but not least, vegetarians like me, do not acknowledge your diet as vegetarian.
Not trying to be mean, not being disrespectful to your diet, that’s just the way it is.
Well, I do see the sensitivity, then. I’ve gotten to the point that I don’t bother eating in many Chinese/Vietnamese/etc. places, because the waitstaff don’t count chicken or even pork FAT as meat when I ask. Never again do I want to taste that crap in my stir fry.
Oh, and Myrr, I am so sorry to assume you were female! I should’ve checked your profile. Almost all of the veggies I’ve met were women, so that’s what my mental picture was. Thanks for setting me right.
Okay…Now if anybody is still primed to debate, let me ask you this: What do you feed you cats/dogs if you are a pet owner?
Hey, no prob–I fully understand the whole “most vegetarians are women” thing. Besides, you were probably just confused by my gorgeous legs
As for the issue of what makes a vegetarian, first off, I’m not going to let a magazine tell me what I am and am not. Same goes for the other organizations (why do you need an organization for a type of diet, anyway?). For example, I fence a lot. I am not a member of the USFA (I probably will join, but that’s another matter), nor do I agree/abide by all their rules (silly things like changing the scoring system to make it more marketable, but I digress). Does this make me not a fencer? Heck no–pick up a foil and I’ll prove it to you. Same thing here.
Finally, it’s exactly this sort of thing that gives off that “holier-than-thou” aura. I actually encouraged my friends to eat meat on the Great American Meat-Out because the signs I saw for it were downright offensive (which I’m not suggesting you’re being, but in this case, they were…). Incidentally, I did not eat meat on the great american meat-out…because I can’t. Having never eaten meat * in my entire life * , my body lacks the enzymes for the digestion of it, and consuming it would make me violently ill. Even the smell is enough to nauseate me.
Back on my soap box, with this pesky pescatarian thing!
Well, you claim in your previous post that “pesco” vegetarianism is “well defined”. Your exact words:
First off, why can’t people who eat red meat be called vegetarian, as well? Hey, why don’t they just ignore what those magazines and organizations say about vegetarianism as well? Why can’t they decide they are vegetarians, even though they do not fit the wide-spread definition of the term? With all due respect, you are.
And, where do you get the “well defined” part? “Well defined” by who? Certainly not by these multitudes of vegetarian organizations, cookbooks, restaurants, etc. The fact that the word “pesco” has been tacked on to “vegetarian” by someone somewhere does not change the fact that it is not a commonly accepted part of the vegetarian diet.
I don’t understand your logic. “Prove it to me?” That you are a vegetarian? The only way you can prove it to me (and many others) is to not eat fish. Sorry.
I did a little research (sorry, I’m in an Alta Vista mood) and found a few cites from vegetarian organizations: (Oh, I’m sure that one could dig up a cite that claims that vegetarians can eat fish, but you’d have to wade through a whole lot more who say they can’t.)
And I could go on. Sure, these cites are meaningless to you, because you are not going to let a magazine or organization tell you what you are. But I think it clarifies that to many vegetarians out there, “pesco” is not “well defined” as being part of vegetarianism.
You can think of yourself as a veggie, no one is stopping you. But it’s harder to get too many other veggies to think of you as that. By the same token, I could start to think that I was a beauty queen if I wanted - but anyone who looked at me would not think I was. But - hey. If it were to make me happy to believe that…I guess I could go on believing it. As long as I didn’t expect anyone else to believe it as well.
And, once again, not trying to be mean. Just clarifying my own, and many other vegetarians’ position. It sounds like you have an excellent diet, and I have respect for it.
It is obviously a sore point for me. I get sick of arguing with people who are offended because I won’t eat fish or chicken, because they have been led to believe by some psuedo-veggie that it is an accepted part of the diet. Argh!
I guess the definition might be more blurry if a lot of vegetarian cookbooks had fish in them. But I’ve never seen one - not with fish, chicken, or any other animal flesh as an ingredient. Oh, I’m not saying that one might not exist, but if it does, it is outnumbered by far by all the cookbooks that don’t include animal flesh. Same with restaurants. I’ve never seen a “veggie platter” in a restaurant that included fish or chicken. And, once again, I am sure somewhere, some “Joe’s Diner” type place has mistakenly called a fish dish “veggie”. But any self-respecting larger restaurant in a semi-large town would never get away with that for long. I have to wonder how a “pescatarian” (or fish eater, chicken eater, whatever) can still think they are eating a veggie diet, and yet never become curious about the obvious absence of fish or fowl in the vast majority of vegetarian restaurants, and in vegetarian cookbooks.
Well, at the moment I’m too tired to rant back, having been on this computer all day, so I shall save that for another day…
Just to point out, though, that my family, myself included, does not use more than one or two “vegetariasn” cookbooks. We use normal cookbooks with modifications made to remove the meat. Simple enough? As I said, I’ll be back to rant some later…you’ll just have to hold your collective breathes until then
I’m not a vegetarian, but I have been slowly eliminating meat from my diet. At first I didn’t make a conscious decision to stop eating meat. About 6 months ago I stopped eating as much meat as I used to because I had joined a kickboxing class. I found that when I ate meat I would get body aches and cramps far more frequently than when I haven’t had meat sometime soon before my classes; so as a result I stopped eating as much meat during the day. This process has continued because meat just felt too heavy and too greasy for me. I just got stomache cramps and stuff if I ate more than just a little meat (although fish doesn’t do it that bad). So, as a way of relieving myself of discomfort, I just stopped eating meat and chicken altogether.
I still occasionally eat fish, but it’s rare enough when there is fish in the house for me to eat. Like I said, I’m not a vegetarian, I’m a pescatarian, and I don’t consider pescatarians to be vegetarians. My friends have been telling me to try being a vegetarian, and I am considering it. After all, my friends don’t seem to be suffering any, and they are in very good health. So who knows…I may start eating small amounts of chicken and red meat again, or I may just make the decision to stop eating all meat altogether.
Which is probably why you have not been “up to speed” with the general attitude out there when it comes to vegetarianism. I have been a vegetarian for 14 years, can’t ever remember seeing a vegetarian cookbook with fish/fowl in it. Hey - the publishers and authors of these veggie books wanted to make sure they are catering to the majority of vegetarians out there, therefore no need for recipes with fish in them. Because vegetarians don’t eat fish. Same with most restaurants who cater to vegetarians. No need for fish. When was the last time you ate at a vegetarian restaurant and saw fish on the menu? Anyone?
And, ever notice that there are frozen and prepared dinners out there, that like to categorize themselves as “Vegetarian”? Like “Vegetarian Chili”, “Vegetarian Broth” “Vegetarian Mock-Fishy Patties”, or whatever. Why do you never see any fish dishes with the “vegetarian” label on them? Obviously food companies are not shy about labeling any food they consider vegetarian as vegetarian - if you follow that. So if fish “clearly” (according to you) qualifies as part of a vegetarian diet - why do I not see prepared/frozen fish dishes labeled as vegetarian? Why are no seafood restaurants calling themselves “vegetarian”?
Because fish is not a commonly accepted part of a vegetarian diet.
Hey - like I said before, think of yourself as vegetarian. If it makes you happy. (And I’ll think that I am a beauty queen! :)) And, sure, I’ll bet you have no trouble convincing many non-vegetarians that veggies can eat fish. Why would most non-veggies care either way? But try to convince other vegetarians that you are a vegetarian - and you will be hard pressed. But - sure - go ahead and think what you want. And I’ll wear my Beauty Queen tiara. And we’ll both be happy.
Hey - you had your chance to say something more substantive before! You mentioned not using many vegetarian cookbooks, and I just took off from there! I am a self-starter!
Near my apartment, there’s a neat-o place called Eatzi’s that caters for people too lazy to cook nice meals. You go there, you pick up some yummy meal, and go home and nuke it, place it on fine china, and no one’s the wiser. It’s a brilliant concept, especially in my yuppified area.
Anyway, as a single vegetarian guy, I go there occassionally for “meals-for-one.” There are some good salads, and their make-your-own-pasta-bowl thingie is tops. But, they have burritos, and they look pretty damn good. There’s even a vegetarian (maybe even vegan) burrito. The problem? The burritos are packages with rice that explicitly claims to contain bacon. Why they don’t make a bacon-free rice dish to serve with the veggie burritos is beyond me.
I like dandilions. Colorfull, and the leaves have more vitamin A than spinach!
