I see a lot of this sort of twisted logic a lot in some eateries. I don’t get it either! You always have to be on your toes, ask questions, and read labels when eating out. My vegan friend interrogates waiters at restaurants a great deal, which is sort of exhausting. That’s why she likes eating at veggie places mostly.
Still waiting for your “rant”, Myrr! 
I’m really sorry to keep you waiting. While falling asleep last night, I came up with an utterly devastating rant to destroy you completely. I went to sleep, I woke up.
I forgot it.
I reconstructed it in my mind, and got ready to post, but saw a lot of other topics first and wasted time posting there.
Somehow, my heart isn’t in this at the moment; I think there’s something wrong with me–normally I’m itching for a good argument.
However, I’ll have a nice long day of work tomorrow, that with any luck will put me in the sort of foul bigoted mood I’m going to need to approach this. Not that I intend to be mean or anything, I just need some motivation. It would help if you could call me a pigfucker, or insult my family lineage or something. 
Oh, I haven’t got it in my to insult your family lineage. Other than to call them all a bunch of… FISH EATERS!!! (Oh my gosh. She didn’t. She didn’t really say that… That BITCH!)
I dunno, Myrr. You’re taking too long to formulate your rant. Hey - I have devoted paragraphs, with links and everything. It was easy for me do get it all down. Oodles of fun, too! So what’s keeping you from doing the same? It isn’t like you have been at a loss for comments on other threads. Come on! You’re compelling argument that is destined to blow me out of the water should not take this much time!
Ooh ooh ooh! BAD! I put an apostrophe where it didn’t belong! I hate that. It’s “your compelling…” not “you’re compelling…”.
Just being my anal self.
Alright then, that does it. You realize I am sacrificing precious precious sleep because of this?
[rant]
You’ve been a vegetarian for 14 years? I was not eating meat while you were still crawling in the dirt searching for the remains of a dead cow.
My bloody family has been vegetarians longer than your bloody Internation Union of Veggetables has been around. The Vegetarian Times is just creepy–I think I shall avoid it.
I know hundreds of vegetarians–I went to the most veggie-heavy high school in the county, and am now at one of the most veggie-heavy colleges in the country. Until now, a total of ** two ** vegetarians have questioned my status as one. They were quickly shot down by the other vegetarians around me. heck, even the vegans I know agree with me, and I rarely agree with them on anything.
I’m a bloody frickin vegetarian. I have been since the day I was born–literally. I know only one other person (not in my family) that can make that claim, and he damn well considers me one.
The word “pescetarian” doesn’t even exist, as far as I’ve been able to determine. I checked a couple different dictionaries. So how can I be one if it’s a made-up word created by a bunch of holier-than-thou nuts? The only references to it I see is on the websites of said nuts. I mean, what does an International Communion of Salad Greens do anyway? Find ways to alienate themselves from * more * of the population?
[/rant]
Well, there’s installment #1, anyway. In the words of the great Bruce Campbell, “come get some”
P.S. No fair making me laugh before I rant. How am I supposed to get a good righteous fury worked up when I’m bloody smiling about you comment? 
Err, that would be “your comment”. Heh.
Well, this is more like it!
But you were eating fish meat. That’s still eating meat as far as I’m concerned. Sorry. Not convinced!
So…your point is? And, if they were eating fish…they would not be acknowledged as vegetarian in my eyes.
Yeah, and no fish recipes in there either. Bummer. What good are they, then, with no fish recipes? Hey - they are as mainstream as you can get - in many larger grocery stores. Most health food stores. You can’t get more “mainstream” than that. And that is what I’m talking about - mainstream. What the mainstream vegetarians consider the definition of vegetarianism to be.
What part of the planet are you from? I am from California, Los Angeles, one of the most veggie-intensive areas around as well, and this is all news to me. My vegan friend went to college up in Humbolt CA (N. CA a very veggie intensive area) and this is not her experience at all. So we’ll just have to agree that our personal experiences have been different on this.
And I’m a beauty queen. I just proclaimed that I was, so I must be.
And one of my friends thinks I’m a beauty queen. So I must be.
As far as “pescetarian” - you are the one that uses “pesco-vegetarian”, this is an offshoot of that term. (I checked several dictionaries as well. No mention of “pesco-vegetarian”. So it’s probably a “made up” word as well!)
They’re “nuts” to you because you don’t agree with them. You just deem them “nuts”, and therefore, you ignore what they say. How convienient. You call them “holier than thou” because they don’t think eating fish is part of a vegetarian diet. But the point is, they represent the more mainstream vegetarian attitude about the subject. Sites such as these, and organizations such as these give you an idea of what vegetarians all over think (not just your friends, your high school, your college.)
They are not trying to “alienate” the population. (Well, maybe some are, but the web sites I looked at were not exactly PETA, or anything.) What is so “alienating” about defining what a vegetarian is? If you are not one, that doesn’t make you BAD. It sounds like you have an excellent diet. No one here is trying to tell you that you are evil. You have a good, sensible, semi-sorta-vegetarian diet. So why would the fact that many mainstream vegetarian organizations consider you semi-sorta vegetarian “alienate” you? Why should anyone feel “alienated” by the fact that they are not considered vegetarian? It isn’t like a religion. It’s a diet choice.
I still haven’t received an answer to my other questions: Why aren’t seafood restaurants considered “vegetarian” restaurants? Why such a lack of vegetarian cookbooks or magazines with fish in the recipes? Why no “vegetarian-labeled” pre-packaged foods with fish in them? Why is it I’ve never noticed a vegetarian restaurant serving fish? These are all “mainstream” things - restaurants, packaged foods, publications. This is an excellent way to get the pulse on what the mainstream collective thoughts are on the subject. And that has been my point. There will always be harder-to-find, non-mainstream groups of semi-veggie people that consider fish as part of a veggie diet, and you can side with them. But they will not be (one more time, that word) part of the mainstream vegetarian attitude.
You can think you are vegetarian. I’m not stopping you. But you will find more and more vegetarians will not share your feelings. Hell. What other vegetarian here has jumped in to side with you? That should tell you something.
Just a suggestion:
The hyphenated prefixs are just add-ons to include other sorts of food the people in question eat. “Vegetarian” alone would indicate just eating vegetable matter (vegan). Lacto- includes dairy. Ovo- includes eggs. Pesco- thus includes fish. Octo- might include eight other things. With each prefix you get further away from a 100% vegan diet. Theoretically, of course, you could call yourself a “porco-vaco-avo-pesco-octo-ovo-lacto-vegetarian”, but that wouldn’t really mean anything other than eating in a traditional western fashion.
Whether or not vegan or vegetarian groups accept people with more prefixes into their clubs, organizations, etc. is of course their own matter.
[Note to self: Don’t read The Thill’s posts with a mouth full of oatmeal.]
Except for two things: (1) “Vegetarian” does not mean “vegan,” it means…well…“vegetarian.” Lacto- and ovo- are types of vegetarians, not deviations from a basic pure state. I may call myself a plain old vegetarian (no lacto-) even though I eat dairy, and vegans will not object that I am misusing the word “vegetarian.” Now, if I tried to call myself a lacto-vegan, on the other hand, I had better be prepared for an argument. (2) A necessary feature of the vegetarian diet is the absence of meat. You may make any modification you want to “vegetarian,” provided you don’t violate this central characteristic. Vegans, lacto-, ovo-, and lacto-ovo- all share this trait, so they can be called vegetarians. Pesco- doesn’t, so it can’t.
As I see it, there are five kinds of diet:[list=1][]Vegans: no animal products of any kind; no meat, no dairy, no honey, etc.[]Lacto-ovo-vegetarians: eat no meat, but do eat “non-lethal” animal products. (Lacto-vegetarians, such as myself, are not significantly different from lacto-ovo types); []Omnivores: eat meat of non-human animals. Some eat only chicken, some only fish, some eat everything; []Cannibals: eat all food material; and People with pica: eat even non-food items.[/list=1]Now, there may be a continuum within any one of these categories, but there are clear delineations between categories.
First of all, Myrr21, I want to say again that we are happy to have you on our side. Given the almost weekly hostilities against vegetarians and veggie sympathizers on this board, we’re happy for any support we can get. Whoever isn’t against us is with us.
But…
This begs the question. If your definition is at issue, asserting that you have fit that definition for a long time does not make the definition more acceptable. You have to appeal to an outside authority.
Like this:
If you won’t accept the authority of Vegetarian Times, Merriam-Webster, or the other groups that yosemitebabe presented, why should we accept the authority of some random high school kids we’ve never met.
You’re exactly right. I don’t like “pescatarian” either, and for exactly this reason. It’s the same reason I don’t like pesco-vegetarian. “Lacto-,” “ovo-,” “lacto-vegetarian,” “lacto-ovo-vegetarian” are all in my dictionary. “Pesco-“ and “pesco-vegetarian” are not.
You obviously want to be a vegetarian very much. So why not just be one. You’re almost there. It wouldn’t take much tweaking of your diet to become a full-fledged, card-carrying, dictionary-defined vegetarian. Then you could get the certificate and we’d teach you the secret handshake.
I am a man. I have been vegetarian for a total of 16 years and vegan for half a year.
I have to emphatically agree with Yosemite that fish are not vegetables. The confusion is a relic of Catholicism, the concept that fish is “not meat.” Well, are fish animals or not? duh. Please lay lingering fish-on-Friday attitudes to rest. Not even the Catholic Church enforces that any more.
I am with the mainstream of vegetarians who do not want to be offered fish or chicken on the misunderstanding that “I thought vegetarians eat fish and chicken.” By all means feel free to satisfy yourself by eating whatever you like, but please do not muddle the definition of “vegetarian” and make it difficult for us vegetarians. It has nothing to do with being self-righteous or holier than thou. (That is an unfortunate stereotype that I wish could be put to rest, a stereotype created by a few zealots who ruin it for the rest of us reasonable, easygoing folks. It’s as unfair as to stereoytpe all Christians as biogted fundamentalist Bible-thumpers.)
It’s not a question of righteousness, but a matter of definition, to make it easier to know what we’re talking about. It’s a kindness to everyone not to mess around with commonly-accepted definitions. It’s hard enough as it is to educate the public about what vegetarian means without someone deliberately spreading confusion. This confusion about “vegetarians” eating fish & chicken is getting kind of antiquated by now, but it’s taking a long time to die slowly.
BTW, in China you might have an even tougher semantic time with this issue. The Chinese conceive of food in two categories: rice (the basic food), and everything else which is called cai ‘vegetable’. Tofu, vegetables, fish, pork, beef, chicken are all classified as cai. If you go to China, I suggest you just ask for Buddha Delight to avoid confusion.
Not checking in as a vegetarian but I do have a question and a possible answer/cause for what is apparently one of the more vexing problems for the “true” vegetarians.
Question first and while similar to wanderer’s question much earlier it is different yet may have the same answer.
The question would be for those of you who have switched from being meat eaters and occurred to me yesterday during a delicious meal of grilled zuccini, tomatoes, and mushrooms
along with a salad and steamed green beans(all garden fresh I might add). The meal also included garlic shrimp and chicken breasts marinated in some new Lawry’s marinade(which was also used on the veggies). I quickly annihilated all the veggies on my plate and was left with the shrimp and chicken. This was odd in its own right but the veggies were good.
The question is that while I enjoyed the veggies immensely I lacked a sense of fulfillment until finishing the shrimp and chicken and I have noticed this in the past when eating similar meals. Did those of you that converted experience anything similar, at least for a period of time?
Realizing that those of you with a mental block against killing animals would have an easier time but what about those of you who just did it in the interest of your health?
Sorry that was kind of a long ways to go to get to the question.
The answer/cause I am proposing centers around the problem you run into with people offering you fish. I would guess that this stems from the Catholic Church and the whole no meat on Fridays during Lent thing. Fish is allowed so people would make a natural assumption then that fish isn’t meat. To quote Karl Marx…Religion is the opiate of the people.
So are the people offering you fish more often than not Catholic?
Just a thought…
I’m vegetarian and have been for the better part of my life. That decision came from an awareness of not wanting to harm others in order to live. Interestingly, my awareness of death first formed at 11 years old, and it was with fish. My parents are marine biologists, and after watching fish caught in the net flop around and die, I made the connection of suffering and eating creatures. I then refused to eat fish. Since we had six kids in the family, and fish was a free benefit of our family’s livelihood, that wasn’t a particularly well-received ultimatum. My mom said that I could cook my own food then. Being naturally intractable, I then proceeded to fix myself hot dogs. Go figger! I of course now know that hot dogs are a hell of a lot worse for you than fresh fish, but didn’t have that awareness then. My operational ideals were with the suffering I had realized. Not perfect, by a long shot, but I acted in accordance to my limited knowledge. My question is, for those of you with a vegetarian tendency, do you eat fish out of a desire for a more health conscios protein, or out of a “fish aren’t really conscious beings” stance?
On that note, Tibetan Buddhists have a highly developed culture of conscious kindness, yet live in a harsh climate that negates living on a totally vegetarian diet. So, they eat meat, usually from a yak or (fem) dri. Does this negate their attitude of cherishing life? It’s a matter of survival. I’ve read that a Buddhist attitude is that it’s worse to eat a plate-o-shrimp than a cow, because many more lives have been taken.
For meownself, I most fortunately live in a country where I can make a well thought out choice of what I take to keep the body going. Even where I live, Mississippi, where it’s quite difficult to obtain quality veg fodder, I’m not suffering any deficiency. I ain’t perfect, and end up eating fish at a restaurant about twice every three years out of no other choice. But fish is last on my list of meat-capitulation, because I have those vivid images of their death.
Before I go back to paranoid, delusional ranting, I have an actual question.
Do you manage to avoid gelatin entirely? Given it’s in damn near everything, it can be pretty hard. Many vegetarians I know don’t, because often it’s damn near impossible to know (especially at college, where you don’t have an ingredient list on the food you eat). Personally, if I’m in doubt, I don’t eat it…
Ok, one more question. After eating a loaf of bread, how can you sleep at night knowing that thousands of yeast died a horrible, baking death to make your bread?
Is that all you have to say? I’m awaiting the delusional ranting with baited breath!
The answer to your question is that we do the best we can. Each vegetarian decides how far they can go. I remember reading an article in Vegetarian Times a few years ago, addressing this subject - about how to avoid animal products “hidden” in things. The answer basically is that you do the best you can.
One thing that is obvious and easy to discern - chunks of animal flesh are to be avoided.
Myrr21, before you start your delusional ranting, allow me to make one more pitch. It’s possible to have your vegetarianism and eat your “fish”, too. Check it out: fake fish.
Dumb Ox, elelle, ishmintingas, I forgot to thank you for your elaborating on this subject. I was rambling on, taking too long to get to my point… You all summarized what I was trying to get at with far more clarity.
Myrr - what they said. You are almost there! So why not just go ahead and be a real vegetarian! The transition probably won’t be that difficult for you at all…
But, hey - are you still going to treat us to your incoherent rant? We’re waiting!
Oh, Myrr just likes his audience to be all primed and ready.
I hadn’t been to this thread in several days and was toddling on over to share some favorite recipes. Then I come upon this interesting fish discussion. Myrr, interesting though your posts may be, I’m coming up against a big problem here – a fish is a living, breathing animal. Vegetarian = plant. I know I’m not breaking any new ground here, but I just felt the need to express my incredulity.
So … anybody want a recipe?
NOODLES AND CHICKPEAS
1 large onion
3 to 4 garlic cloves
2 tablespoons olive oil
1 tsp basil
1/4 tsp crushed red pepper, or to taste
1/2 tsp fennel seed (optional, but good)
1 28-ounce can diced tomatoes
2 1-pound cans chickpeas (garbanzo beans)
Salt and pepper, to taste
1 pound linguine
2- to 3-ounce hunk Parmesan or Asiago cheese, grated on wide grooves
Dice onion. Mince garlic. Heat olive oil in a deep, wide skillet over medium heat. Add onion and cook, stirring occasionally, 10 minutes. Add garlic, basil, red pepper flakes and fennel and cook 5 minutes more.
Pour tomatoes and 1 can (drained) chickpeas into a blender. Add onion mixture and blend a few seconds. Pour into skillet, add remaining chickpeas and salt and pepper, to taste. Set on low heat and simmer while you cook the noodles. Toss the pasta with chickpea sauce and sprinkle with coarsely grated Parmesan or other hard, sharp cheese.
Serves 4 to 6. Serve with broccoli.
I saw this on a recipe archieve and thought of Myrr:
MOTHER EARTH MOTHER OCEAN SOUP
3 onions, chopped, sauteed in 3 Tbsps olive oil
6 potatoes, cubed
2 carrots, sliced
2 parsnips, sliced
2 turnips, cubed
1/2 cup dried, wild greens (I used dried nettles, which have lots of iron and vitamin C and can be found in our dried herb section. They have an interesting rich taste, a little like spinach.)
1/2 cup dried seaweed (any kind you want to try)
12 cups water
Cook in a large pot until vegetables are done, adding salt to taste at the end.
Ellen:
Your last recipe sounds interesting. I’ve only seen dried nettles packaged as tea. I have some left over that I was using while I was pregnant (it’s supposed to help morning sickness and be an iron supplement). Is that the kind you use in this recipe? I’d love to have a tasty way to use it up.