Evidence Russians are Attempting to Influence the US Election

[Fiveyearlurker]

@Malthus

I don’t see how it is any different.

The Russians put out this stuff, knowing (or reasonably suspecting) that Trump will use it; Trump uses it, knowing (or reasonably suspecting) it comes from the Russians.

They don’t have to be directly in “cahoots” for the Russians to play him.

It’s the difference between being dishonestly opportunistic and outwardly treasonous. Neither is good, but the latter is much worse.

[Malthus]

@Fiveyearlurker

It’s the difference between being dishonestly opportunistic and outwardly treasonous. Neither is good, but the latter is much worse.

Seems a bit of a strawman. I don’t think anyone is seriously arguing Trump is actively attempting to aid Russia, only that he is disturbingly easy for Russia to manipulate.

Or indeed anyone with bad intentions, an axe to grind, access to its own army of “disinformation” sources and hired “random” twitter and other accounts, who wishes to spread nonsense to support naïve right wing politicos (and has a track record of doing so).

Of course, the one entity that meets these criteria most closely is - Putin’s Russia. No-one else has taken to the Internet to spread disinformation with quite the same gusto.

[Wesley_Clark]

@AK84

:rolleyes:
Pot, meet kettle.

Americans are upset that a foreign power is trying to influence elections? Oh that is fucking hilarious. Who does that…wait a minute.

Yeah, it is kind of disrespectful for us to act like this is something horrible considering how many times we’ve tried to both peacefully and via force influence the political systems of overseas nations.

[davidm]

@CarnalK

Or one of his staffers had a Google alert that pinged just before the rally and he printed it out and handed it to Trump immediately without fact checking.

And from my linked WaPo article:

Update: Or another option. BuzzFeed News’ Jon Passatino notes on Twitter that the Sputnik article may not even have been the source of Trump’s comments. It may have been a tweet from earlier in the day which included the precise language Trump read.

x.com

And the plot thickens. So who or what is “CNN is Axis Sally” (@republic2016)?

https://www.google.com/search?q="cnn+is+axis+sally"&btnG=Search

Whoever it is, they appear to tweet a constant stream of anti-Hillary propaganda.

Interestingly, he or she has recently changed their name from “CNN is Axis Sally” to “CNN is Lord Haw-Haw”.

Both Axis Sally and Lord Haw-Haw were Axis propagandists.

[Malthus]

@Wesley_Clark

Yeah, it is kind of disrespectful for us to act like this is something horrible considering how many times we’ve tried to both peacefully and via force influence the political systems of overseas nations.

The good old tu quoque. Never grows old.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

[Snarky_Kong]

If Trump is just a useful idiot to the Russia why does he always defend them? Invasion of Crimea? Never heard of it! They never hacked anyone, musta been some fat loser! That hospital in Aleppo was full of ISIS!

Seems to go beyond easily fooled to me.

[CarnalK]

@Malthus

Seems a bit of a strawman. I don’t think anyone is seriously arguing Trump is actively attempting to aid Russia, […]

Euphonious Polemic is very much suggesting that possibility.

@Euphonious_Polemic

If Trump is not being run directly by Russia, then he is serving as their useful idiot.

@Euphonious_Polemic

Trump’s campaign seems to be VERY quickly connected to much of the disinformation coming from Russian propaganda sources. If the campaign is not being sent it directly, then they certainly regularly check the Russian sources for new leads.

[HMS_Irruncible]

Question: Do we think there’s ever been a US election that Russia did not try to influence? (and vice versa)

It seems to me that the only difference now is that they’re using the “radically transparent” intermediary of Wikileaks, taking advantage of their thin veneer of impartiality (which will probably be burned out by the end of this election).

[Malthus]

@Snarky_Kong

If Trump is just a useful idiot to the Russia why does he always defend them? Invasion of Crimea? Never heard of it! They never hacked anyone, musta been some fat loser! That hospital in Aleppo was full of ISIS!

Seems to go beyond easily fooled to me.

I think he quite sincerely admires Putin.

Putin’s a macho strongman of the sort Trump would like to be himself. Plus, Putin doesn’t give a shit about things like facts, and sees only supporters and enemies - much like Trump.

[Snarky_Kong]

And changing he Republic platform to be conciliatory with regards to Ukraine? As a gift out of admiration?

[Malthus]

@Snarky_Kong

And changing he Republic platform to be conciliatory with regards to Ukraine? As a gift out of admiration?

Sadly, that’s entirely possible.

[choie]

Putin pal (and Russia’s version of Trump, a massively wealthy real estate magnate) urges Americans to vote for Trump if they want to avoid nuclear war.

@Reuters

Americans should vote for Donald Trump as president next month or risk being dragged into a nuclear war, according to a Russian ultra-nationalist ally of President Vladimir Putin who likes to compare himself to the U.S. Republican candidate.

Vladimir Zhirinovsky, a flamboyant veteran lawmaker known for his fiery rhetoric, told Reuters in an interview that Trump was the only person able to de-escalate dangerous tensions between Moscow and Washington.

By contrast, Trump’s Democratic rival Hillary Clinton could spark World War Three, said Zhirinovsky, who received a top state award from Putin after his pro-Kremlin Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR) came third in Russia’s parliamentary election last month.

Many Russians regard Zhirinovsky as a clownish figure who makes outspoken statements to grab attention but he is also widely viewed as a faithful servant of Kremlin policy, sometimes used to float radical opinions to test public reaction.

“Relations between Russia and the United States can’t get any worse. The only way they can get worse is if a war starts,” said Zhirinovsky, speaking in his huge office on the 10th floor of Russia’s State Duma, or lower house of parliament.

“Americans voting for a president on Nov. 8 must realize that they are voting for peace on Planet Earth if they vote for Trump. But if they vote for Hillary it’s war. It will be a short movie. There will be Hiroshimas and Nagasakis everywhere.”

Yeah, they’re not trying to influence us at all. Later in the article:

…Zhirinovsky, who said he met Trump in New York in 2002, revels in his similarities with the American businessman - they are the same age, favor coarse, sometimes misogynistic language and boast about putting their own country first. Zhirinovsky has even said he wants a DNA test to see if he is related to Trump.

But unlike Trump, a billionaire real estate developer who casts himself as the anti-establishment candidate in the U.S. presidential race with no past political experience, Zhirinovsky is a consummate political insider who has sat in the Duma for more than two decades.

(…snip…)

In other comments that have delighted Moscow, Trump has questioned the value of NATO for Washington, has spoken ambiguously about Russia’s 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea and suggested that the United States under his leadership would adopt a more isolationist foreign policy.

“He (Trump) won’t care about Syria, Libya and Iraq and why an [sic] earth should America interfere in these countries? And Ukraine. Who needs Ukraine?,” said Zhirinovsky, who once counted himself a friend of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein and Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi and whose deaths he still laments.

[CarnalK]

@Malthus

Sadly, that’s entirely possible.

But now you must realize it wasn’t a strawman and people are indeed suggesting he’s actively aiding Russia, right?

[FlikTheBlue]

@HMS_Irruncible

Question: Do we think there’s ever been a US election that Russia did not try to influence? (and vice versa)

It seems to me that the only difference now is that they’re using the “radically transparent” intermediary of Wikileaks, taking advantage of their thin veneer of impartiality (which will probably be burned out by the end of this election).

Maybe they did back during the Cold War, but I don’t think they’ve done anything to influence our elections since then. Even if I were to assume that they did, I’m not even sure which side they would have been helping. Did they prefer GWB over Gore? What about Clinton vs GHW Bush back in 1992? Obama vs Romney? I wouldn’t even be able to guess which side the Russians would want to win in those elections.

[penultima_thule]

@AK84

Americans are upset that a foreign power is trying to influence elections? Oh that is fucking hilarious.

+1

@Wesley_Clark

Yeah, it is kind of disrespectful for us to act like this is something horrible considering how many times we’ve tried to both peacefully and via force influence the political systems of overseas nations.

@Malthus

The good old tu quoque. Never grows old.

Not disputing the fallacy or age of the argument, just whistling up the industrial strength hypocrisy on display.

[Malthus]

@CarnalK

But now you must realize it wasn’t a strawman and people are indeed suggesting he’s actively aiding Russia, right?

Yes, it appears some are. I think they are incorrect.

In my opinion, they simply underestimate the massive shallow narcissism of the man.

He truly appears to divide the world into supporters and enemies. A supporter can do no wrong and an enemy can do no right. Putin is a supporter, therefore he imagines Putin is basically an okay fellow Trump can do business with as POTUS, and he’s willing to swallow Russian-manufactured trashy disinformation. Obama is an enemy, so Obama is worse than Putin as a leader.

To my mind, this is almost worse than if Trump was an active Russian agent: he’s simply so monumentally self-centered, so immune to facts, that he apparently truly doesn’t care what evils Putin’s Russia has performed - as long as Putin is ‘in his corner’, so to speak, Putin’s a swell fellow and his Russia is A-Okay.

The sheer depth of problems for the nation and the world such a mind-set implies should Trump ever win is hard to grasp.

[Malthus]

@penultima_thule

+1
Not disputing the fallacy or age of the argument, just whistling up the industrial strength hypocrisy on display.

Meh. This sort of thing convinces no-one.

‘It is silly to think 9/11 was terrible. The US has bombed people’.

It is perfectly possible to simultaneously believe that the US has bombed people and that 9/11 was terrible.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@CarnalK

Euphonious Polemic is very much suggesting that possibility.

Pssst. I’m flattered, but you may have noticed that I am an obscure nobody on a minor message board.

ETA: Wow, I’m now elevated to “people are suggesting”. I wondered about those “people” who suggest things. Now I’m one of them!

[Snarky_Kong]

@CarnalK

But now you must realize it wasn’t a strawman and people are indeed suggesting he’s actively aiding Russia, right?

Yes or no, did Trump’s campaign change the republican platform to be more pro-Russian?

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Malthus

Yes, it appears some are. I think they are incorrect.

In my opinion, they simply underestimate the massive shallow narcissism of the man.

He truly appears to divide the world into supporters and enemies. A supporter can do no wrong and an enemy can do no right. Putin is a supporter, therefore he imagines Putin is basically an okay fellow Trump can do business with as POTUS, and he’s willing to swallow Russian-manufactured trashy disinformation. Obama is an enemy, so Obama is worse than Putin as a leader.

To my mind, this is almost worse than if Trump was an active Russian agent: he’s simply so monumentally self-centered, so immune to facts, that he apparently truly doesn’t care what evils Putin’s Russia has performed - as long as Putin is ‘in his corner’, so to speak, Putin’s a swell fellow and his Russia is A-Okay.

The sheer depth of problems for the nation and the world such a mind-set implies should Trump ever win is hard to grasp.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you have said here.

My problem is with people who bat their eyelashes, and appear to be trying to say: “Russia? Why they’re not connected with the Trump campaign at all! I’m sure they’re not doing Anything to try to influence the election, and they’re completely innocent of providing disinformation that the Trump campaign will eagerly promote!”