I think there’s a certain amount of this in women that say that they don’t have and don’t want any female friends, and that they get along better with men. I find it sad and limiting, because I’ve had very positive experiences with my female friends and can’t imagine life without them.
I do get along better with men, but only because in my younger years women were 100x more vicious towards gender nonconforming women (ie, “not interested in girly stuff” not “I have a penis”). I’ve only ever heard the phrase "women shouldn’t… " out of the mouths of other women.
I have very close women friends now, but it took me a long time to get over the anti woman hate directed at me by other women. To be fair, some, not all, were girls.
Jewish people have a long history of self-deprecating and sometimes very pointed anti-Jewish sentiment, some humorous, some not. The classic example is from Gentleman’s Agreement:
I have known a number of Jews IRL who reminded me very much of Miss Wales.
Perhaps Midwestern WASPs are too broad a category, but can’t we all think of dozens of writers (starting with Sinclair Lewis, of course) who spent their careers sneering at the other Midwestern WASPs they grew up with, and painting them as stupid, provincial yahoos?
I’ll admit it. I am Jewish, and I have a lot of prejudices against orthodox Jews, who are a more extreme variant of my religion. In my opinion, they are very insular and bring much of the anti-semitism that exists on themselves and ultimately on me because they do not attempt to integrate into the communities where they are established. As a Jew, I undertstand that we are not into “recruiting” and therefore don’t feel the need to go out into the community to share with everyone how awesome it is to be a Jew, but there is a happy balance. The orthodox also have a number of religious holidays throughout the year that a true believer will take off to pray, be with family, etc. That’s all fine and dandy, but if it comes at a critical time when a deadline has to be met, and you aren’t in the office because of a holiday no one has ever heard of, it naturally breeds a level of resentment from the co-workers, which again falls on me (who works on Yom Kippur) because others assume “all Jews do that”.
As far as other races, I do give all Jews credit for being focused on education and personal achievement more than most other races, and having an importance on family, but I don’t think we hold a candle to most Asian cultures that do it far better than us. When I walk around the local college campuses, there is a huge Asian presence, particularly among the Chinese, so they must be doing something better than the rest of us.
I listen to a lot of jazz and blues.
In a lot of the older stuff, disparaging attitudes about blacks come out in the lyrics pretty routinely. In songs written and performed by black musicians.
Whether or not they were Tomming I can’t say.
I agree. It’s just a sad reinforcement of negative stereotypes.
I can think of multiple friends of mine who refuse to date within their own race, based on stereotypes about those races.
This is most definitely NOT an example of “self”-bigotry, but it may seem that way to outsiders.
We all know white bigots who will state categorically that black people are all either:
- lazy bums
- thieves
- violent thugs
- stupid
- drunks or drug addicts
- some other negative stereotype
- some combination of the above
Now, while it wouldn’t be quite accurate to say that black Africans feel that way about their own tribes/clans/nations, you’ll commonly find they DO have the same attitudes toward OTHER black Africans of other tribes/clans/nations.
People from black African nation A will tell you without hesitation, “Those people from nation B are all thieves.” People in nation B will freely tell you “Those people in nation C are all lazy drunkards.” People in nation C will tell you “Those people in nation D are scum; they should all be killed.”
Right-thinking Americans, ESPECIALLY black Americans, often assume there’s a kind of Pan-African solidarity and kinship and good will that simply doesn’t exist, and they are often shocked at what Africans think of other Africans. Hutus and Tutsis say worse things about each other than Klansmen say about either of them.
I personally know two self-hating blacks who would give Alan Keyes a run for his money.
Two more entries:
First, there are some people who are just crazy. Chess master Bobby Fischer was Jewish, but he was affiliated with neo-Nazi groups. That’s self-hatred, pure and simple.
But there are also people who come from particular ethnic or religious backgrounds who NOW believe their backgrounds were destructive, even if they hold some affection for the people they grew up with.
I have been married twice, both times to Mexican-American women from Texas. Hence, I’ve seen the good and bad sides of Tex-Mex culture up close for many years.
Most Texas Mexicans love their families deeply and passionately, and that’s a wonderful thing to behold… but it has a dark side, too.
I’ve known several well-educated, successful Mexican-Americans who broke away angrily from their families, and still hold grudges against them, because they believe (not without reason) that their families sabotaged their efforts at getting good educations and moving up in the world.
One man I knew was offered a scholarship to Yale as a high school senior. And his family, led by Abuelita (Grandma is the queen of most large Mexican families), insisted that he could NOT go to a school so far away from la familia! Indeed, Abuelita wasn’t even keen on him going to the nearby University of Texas at Austin! What need was there for him to go to any college and start putting on airs? The local chemical plant and the local cement factory were hiring- what more could a young man want than a steady job there?
This fellow (who eventually became an executive with a large insurance corporation; don’t feel TOO sorry for him) says, “Now that I’m older and I’ve broadened my horizons, I know that if I’d come from a Jewish family or a Chinese family or an Indian family and I’d gotten a scholarship to Yale, they’d all have been PROUD of me! They’d have thrown a big celebration! They’d have called everyone they knew to brag about me. But to Mexicans, a guy who wants to better himself is just too big for his britches, and has to be taken down a peg.”
I know I know, anecdotes don’t make data, or even a trend. But I can say that I know a lot of successful Mexican-Americans who felt they had to break with their families if they ever wanted to succeed.
A black co-worker of mine described his own skin color as “like shit.”
I didn’t know what to say. I still don’t.
I work with a black woman who I think has some issues about black people and being black. She comes off as very judgmental sometimes. I think she holds black people to a higher standard than she does white people based on some of the comments she makes. I’ve learned to ignore her when she’s like this, but for awhile she used to bug the shit out of me. She just seems so racially uptight, and I’ve never met a person like this before.
She refuses to eat fried chicken in public because she doesn’t want to fulfill any stereotypes. And she will never acknowledge that she likes “black” music. She’s very vocal about her love for rock music, though. She’ll bend over backwards to brag about her Metallica collection. But I think I’m the only person who knows she has rap music on her iPod and that she listens to it on a regular basis because she is always the first to talk about how she hates rap. Or Michael Jackson. Especially Michael Jackson. I think Michael Jackson must have raped her mama or something. She won’t even allow herself to admit he’s talented. I just can’t understand that. Bash his personality all you want, but leave his music alone dammit. When she starts hating on MJ, I leave the room because I’ll get too stabby otherwise. I’m not even the biggest fan of MJ, but it just seems so over-the-top to me that I can’t help but to think she’s putting on airs.
She has said “nigga” around me (when we’re the only people around in a 5 mile radius :)). There are some people who can say “nigga” around me and I won’t think a thing. But from her it’s highly suspicious. There’s too much “er” in her pronunciation, I guess.
I have met color struck people before. People like my father, for instance. (“Color struck” refers to the preference for light skin that some black people–especially men–have.)
I know I have anti-white and anti-black prejudices. It’s damn near impossible for a person not to have some prejudice, even of the “self-hating” type. But a person can only help themselves by acknowledging it and always questioning the bullshit that comes out of their mouth. I like to think that even though I may occasionally think some messed-up things, I really really really try not express them or act on them. I’m always talking to myself, asking myself why I feel the way I do. I may not always answer honestly, but I hope being conscientious keeps me from saying mean, offensive things.
Asides from that, I’ve run into plenty of gay guys who act disparagingly towards other gay guys who are more effeminate - the “I may be gay, but I’m not a f****t like him” attitude.
I was very common in Peru (less now, but still present) for people of native or African descent to express the desdire for their kids to marry white to “improve the race” Even now, dirt poor Argentinian women (white skin, green/blue eyes, light hair) find many marrige oportunities here in Peru in these groups.
I’ve read that this is prevalent in Thailand, and in parts of China as well.
I had a former female coworker who pretty frequently expressed the opinion that women shouldn’t be given real power because they aren’t responsible enough. She was the sort of person who believed all people should be reduced to basic stereotypes, herself included.
I am surprised no one mentioned Chelsie Handler.
To hijack the thread a bit… are people who hate the communities, cultures, faiths or heritages they were raised in necessarily “self-loathing”? Are people who strongly dislike demonstrable trends in the groups they belong to REALLY engaged in “self-bigotry”?
The late Bill Hicks was a white Southerner, as is fellow comedian David Cross. Both of them regularly mocked and trashed white Southerners. ANd yet, I strongly doubt whether their many fans amonghe SDMB regulars would call either man “a self-loathing Southerner.” Indeed, since many (most?) SDMB regulars regard white Southern culture with scorn, they probably hail Hicks and Cross for lambasting other white Southerners.
Similarly, there are millions of people who were raised Catholic but now loathe the Church they once belonged to. Are those people to be dismissed as “self-loathing Catholics”? Not here at the SDMB, where I’m sure many (most?) regulars would insist that those people have excellent reasons for breaking away from the Church and for holding a grudge against her.
Well, what’s unique about Southern or Catholic culture? Is it really so hard to imagine that a woman who moved to America from a Muslim nation might abandon her faith, and speak out angrily about all the ways in which she feels her culture and religion demeaned her? Would anyone call her “a self-loathing Muslim”?
Is it really hard to imagine that an educated black professional who escaped from South Central L.A. might look down on the people and the ghetto culture he left behind? Is he to be dismissed as “self-loathing black man”?
MUST John Vasquez, a third generation Amrican citizen born in Dallas, support illegal immigration or risk being called a self-loathing Mexican? MUST a monogamous lesbian approve of bathhouses or risk being called a self-loathing gay person?
MANY people from MANY cultures have good reason to dislike the groups they were born into or that they grew up in. That does NOT equal self-bigotry.
Yes it is, to some extent in Thailand. My wife and I purposely chose not to have children, but until we became obviously past child-bearing age we were inundated with demands – yes, demands – that we have children, because “half-breeds are always so cute.” The prevailing wisdom seems to be they would automatically become successful singers and/or actors – many if not most of the really big local names are half-Thai, as have been so many Miss Thailands – and take care of us in luxurious old age.