Is your son comedian Bill Burr?
He’s actually very funny but more to the point he frequently talks about his anger issues in his comedy routine.
One thought is that instead of prescribing actions to your son, you might want to talk about how all that constant negativity impacts you and your wife. Tthat you don’t mind the occasional venting, but you aren’t really equipped to address these issues he’s bringing up and that he might want to look to someone who is better able to help.
Just curious, what about his negativity is it specifically that damages your mental health? Is it that you don’t want to think about those unpleasant things? Is it that you worry about your son’s mental health and are unhappy to see him unhappy?
I usually don’t appreciate offensive humor, but that guy always makes me laugh and then hate him for making me laugh. If you haven’t seen him unleash on a crowd of heckling Philadelphians, I strongly recommend it.
Basically just the second half of the sentence. It makes us unhappy to see any of our kids unhappy. I’m not sure I think of myself as “worrying about his mental health.” Tho I guess that is one way of saying I wish he were happier and took what appear to me as readily achievable steps to relieve stresses.
Kinda weird, but at least for me, such concerns don’t end when the kids are all grown and moved out. But, I acknowledge my concerns for my son - or any of my kids - pale compared to those of folk whose kids have much more serious and more intractable issues.
Back in the 80’s, at the height of the HIV/AIDS crisis here in San Francisco, I did some volunteer work with a group called the Shanti Project. Each of us, after some training, would be assigned to work with one or two people, who either had AIDS themselves or had a loved one with AIDS. Our entire job was to be meet with the person, usually once a week for an hour or so, and talk to them about whatever they wanted to talk about. It might be something mundane, but often we had to sit with their pain and their fear and their resentment. We had to do more than just listen, we had to reflect back to them what we were witnessing, to be fully with them and engaged with them, so they knew every time that they were seen and heard. What we were doing was a trainable skill, and it was some of the hardest work I have ever done. But worth every minute.
It sounds like your son is in pain, even if he doesn’t realize it, or express it in a way that elicits a sympathetic response. I am sitting here wishing I could reach out to you, and help you reach out to him, in the way we did to the people we worked with at the Shanti Project. Emotional pain is so much easier to bear, and even to work through, when you know that when you speak, someone is hearing you fully and openly, and that your expression of your pain is not pushing that person away. When your son is complaining about people and situations external to himself, there are feelings behind those complaints. If you can bear to do it, you can engage with him and help him to defuse some of those negative feelings. If you can do this, I believe you will find yourself closer to your son than you have ever been.
There is so much more to say about this, but it’s too much for a message board. I wanted to present this perspective to you, I thought it was one you may not have considered up to now.
Perhaps Al-Anon is a good first step?
Maybe, having been round and round a bit already, it’s possible both sides can only hear one thing. All you hear is his woes and downcast view, all he hears is, ‘You don’t have it so bad! Be happier!’
It’s possible he’s constantly projecting his downcast views because you constantly diminish them, as not worth being such a sad sack downer about.
Just saying, if he didn’t feel you always judging him and his struggles, (because you kinda are!), perhaps he’d lay off dragging them to your attention in an effort to make you acknowledge his pain is valid.
Few things are as damaging to people as having those who matter most, diminish or discount their pain/struggles.
Few things are as enraging as attempting to justify your agonies to someone who should kinda, be on your side. Especially a parent. It’s not unheard of for therapists to counsel patients caught in such a cycle to break ties, to maintain their own mental health.
Something to consider maybe.
Just chiming in to say that I could probably be described as having a negative disposition. Not full-time, but more often than I should. I have a very exacting view of how the world should be and how people should act, and I am easily frustrated. I admit that I can be difficult to be around, and my pissiness and anger not only make others unhappy, they make me unhappy. I suffer on and off from chronic depression, which no doubt contributes.
I appreciate the observations that the OP and others are making about how they see people like me, and I apologise for how I affect others.
I guess all I would add to this discussion is a request that rather than just reacting to my behaviour, people try to understand that it is coming from pain and to try to engage me at that level. I really don’t want to be this way.
Good points. I readily admit that I have always been performance oriented, and big on the taking of personal responsibility. As are my wife and children. And by that measure, he gets high marks. Like I said, he has advanced engineering degrees, and has progressed in his profession. When he did not like the track his employer was taking following a recent buyout, he very quickly succeeded in landing a better job elsewhere. He’s been married for 5-ish years and they clearly love each other. And they have a fine home (tho I think they made a poor choice in location. He greatly dislikes many of the neighborhood dynamics - theft, vandalism, and his HOA.) He seems to be having some success in his fantasy/gaming/con avocation - tho I feel he is discouraged that it has not resulted in more financial recognition (not a ton of folk make big bucks in those areas.) He probably drinks more than I think optimal and has a not great diet, but those are his choices - and they haven’t interfered with his job/marriage/recreation.
I remember when he was in college, he complained about how hard he worked compared to the LAS students who partied through college. He asked, “When do I get to take it easy and just enjoy life?” We responded, “When you die?” My impression is that he basically feels life is unfair, and that he shouldn’t have to work as hard as he does. But, I believe later this month his wife and he are taking a trip to Germany - so it isn’t as though it is all work and no play.
I remember him complaining about his “stupid” teachers in middle school. And yeah, some of them WERE stupid. But we said, “Yes, they do sound stupid. But YOU don’t get to change that. Instead, you have to figure out both how to learn the material AND how to get the grade.” Same way we told them, “The boss is not always right, but they are always the boss.” We went to bat for that kid many a time through grade/middle/high school. And we actively helped him seek out and pursue his gaming interests and other recreation that suited his interests and physical limitations.
So yeah, I have a pretty pessimistic outlook myself. Many/most people basically suck, and many of the worst world events don’t have to be that way, and I am helpless to do anything about them. So I could either dwell on all the crap I can’t do anything about, or I can make a conscious effort to work on and enjoy the limited things I CAN have an effect on. I know that my approach is better for me. Being entirely selfish, I have limited tolerance for hearing people complain repeatedly and endlessly about things they either could readily change, or that they have no power over. And, given my personal experience, I do not think that an overly pessimistic outlook is healthy over the long run.
I’m not saying he owes me anything. But I am disappointed that we do not have a more authentic relationship. I can interact somewhat pleasantly with him, but I pretty much stick to superficialities, and make sure to either not bring up certain topics (for the love of god, don’t bring up Elon Musk!), or work hard to change the subject if those topics do get broached. Just not the sort of relationship I had hoped for when we were raising him. But I realize parents don’t get to dictate how their kids turn out.
Yesterday’s discussion about the new job went well enough - tho he complained quite a bit about the new commute. Hopefully the new job will give him some positive input - at least for a while. We won’t say anything, but I hope he will consider the possibility of moving - which would relieve some of the stresses he perceives from his current location.
Thanks for the discussion.
Are you sure he is unhappy? I know he sounds like he is , but some people really don’t seem to be happy unless they are complaining about something and you can’t assume anything about how they feel from what they say. My mother is constantly complaining - the people she goes out with 3-4 times a week are dumb ( and why do people keep calling them her friends ? - they aren’t her friends) , the food from the senior center is terrible - and they don’t give you enough , her therapist doesn’t want to talk about current events and so on. When someone says " Gee, I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy yourself" she is truly mystified and says "I didn’t say that " .
You should maybe consider switching up your approach, which seems extremely reasonable to you, no doubt, but clearly isn’t working, and try another tact.
I’m going to guess you have been somewhat discounting his agonies over some time. That’s a hard corner to get out of, to be honest.
Have you ever just acknowledged his struggle? No advice, no judgment, no policing the tone. Just flat out listening and acknowledging. ‘Wow, that sounds frustrating!”, “I can understand why that’s a struggle for you, it’s a lot.”, “I wish I could make that better for you, I can’t, but I can listen!”
I expect this isn’t your strong point, you’re intent on making his live better, leading him to a better way. He’s already been raised up, he is who he is. You can’t expect him to accept you still wanting to parent him. You need to meet him where he is, instead of how you want him to be, before you lose him entirely.
You don’t have to like his ways of being in the world. But if you love him regardless, you have to let him be who he is.
Constructive criticism? Still criticism!
You might even find he’ll find his own way, out of this dark spot, if you quit trying to make him follow your road map.
Then you stop giving them suggestions.
If somebody insisted on continuing to give me suggestions that I’d clearly told them I didn’t want any more of, I’d probably sound pissed off every time I talked to them too. And I’d limit how much I talked to them, if I did so at all.
I said it on another thread:
*If somebody doesn’t ask for my advice or opinion, then they truly don’t want my advice or opinion
*If somebody does ask for my advice or opinion – well, they probably don’t want my advice or opinion, then, either
Food for thought.
Can you give us an example of his negative attitude? Like examples of a reaction or something that he said.
I’m trying to understand the conflict between you. . . and I don’t sense much. Other than just the sentiment. There must be negative actions or specific statements. . .
Of course not. They’re your kids forever. But that doesn’t have to mean trying to fix all his problems for him. You raised him to be a self-sufficient independent adult and it sounds like he’s handling himself pretty well. I know people who go off about politics a lot, but are generally happy. You’re never going to be 100% pleased with everything he does, but discretion being the better part of valor, he doesn’t need to know that.
Me! I have experience with this! My mom is the queen of negativity (although, okay, I must admit not even on the same planet as @Spice_Weasel’s mom, she’s not that bad). She may be on the spectrum – she at least has very little theory of mind. My older child (definitely on the spectrum) also has a much more negative disposition than my younger child – Younger Child smiles practically 100% of the time, whereas Older Child tends to see the negative when there’s negative to be seen, and also tends to have a lot of problems with emotional regulation, which I think are related. With Older Child, we’re working a lot on the emotional regulation part of it right now, though that’s not really your problem.
The best tools I have for dealing with my mom (and actually another close friend as well who can also complain a lot, though this person has a lot more reasons to) is redirection and boundaries. Sometimes she needs to vent, and I’m fine with that up to a point. If it starts getting unreasonable, which it sometimes does, I’ll try to redirect the conversation into some other avenue. If it starts veering into blatant criticism of me (this is past my boundary), I’ve been known to pull the “Well, gotta go, bye now!” card and just hang up. Mom’s not stupid and has figured out that she can only go so far.
Honestly if they are that negative all the time, I’d probably try to avoid them as much as possible.
I don’t mind listening if a friend wants to talk about their problems or something that’s bothering them. But I don’t really want to be around disagreeable people who just want to bitch and moan about everything they can think of.
This is a piece of advice that I’ve always struggled with; when a friend or loved one comes to me to talk about problems or concerns that they’re facing, a big part of my brain wants to jump into problem-solving mode…and sometimes, that other person is not looking for suggestions, they’re just looking for empathy.
Recently, I read a quote, where someone suggested that, in such a situation, the listener should consider starting their side of the conversation with, “do you want comfort or solutions?” I’ve been trying to take that idea to heart.
Sometimes it’s that.
Sometimes it’s that the suggestions, no matter how well meant, no matter how sure the person offering them is that they’re good and useful suggestions, just consistently in the receiver’s opinion are from their point of view inapplicable and/or actually bad ideas.
People’s lives are drastically different and what’s a genuinely good idea for person X may be an unusable idea or even a terrible idea for person Y. Or, even if it might also be a great idea for person Y, they don’t think so and they’re a grown-assed adult.
Sometimes, of course, it’s a combination. And you’re certainly right that sometimes people are looking for commiseration, and/or a chance to vent, and don’t want to deal right that minute with the practicalities of how to improve the situation.
You can also be a solutions-oriented person but struggling with something that has no solution, or something you have no control over. I’m very solutions-driven but sometimes the “solution” is acceptance of something you don’t much like. But that’s something nobody wants to hear. I’ve been much happier since I’ve been able to accept that fixing my loved ones’ problems is not my responsibility.
When my kids went off to college and were living on their own for the first time they would constantly call my wife and me to whine about whatever problem they had. My wife’s response was, “That sucks. What are you going to do about it?” A few years later as they were able to whine better, we came up with the alliterative, “Are you looking for advice, approval, or affirmation?”