Experience dealing with a close friend/relative with a negative disposition?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I was wondering if folk might share their experiences dealing with someone close to them who has a consistently negative disposition.

My concern is with our adult son in his young 30s. He was more challenging than our other 2 children when young. Very whiny, eventually assessed as on the shallow end of the spectrum. As a preschooler we took him to a child psychologist who said simply, “That child just has a negative disposition.”

His primary emotion seems to be anger - at political/social issues, economic issues, you name it. When I’ve observed that he seems angry he says he intentonally chooses anger/irritation because otherwise he would be depressed. My wife and I suspect he and his wife are likely depressed and would benefit from counseling but suggestions along those lines were not well received. No, we didn’t say, “You are depressed and need to see a shrink.” Instead, observing that having someone to speak with can help deal with unpleasantness.

He and his wife seem to love each other greatly. They both have advanced degrees and are adequately employed in their preferred fields. They own a pretty nice home 700 or so miles from us (tho in a not great neighborhood - which causes him stress.) They seem to have plenty of time - for young people in their stage of life - to pursue their recreational interests. He and his wife are both very into RP/cosplay, which is of little interest to us. My impression is that he is upset that the real world and his life do not live up to his idea as to what it might/should be.

He seems to have little to no interest in us - he rarely calls, and often fails to send birthday/Mother’s Day/Christmas cards. That’s not that big of a deal - tho it is tough when he doesn’t even call or text on one of our birthdays. When we call him (maybe 1x/month), he seems willing to talk, but he generally starts complaining about one thing or another - which brings us down. We desire to have an authentic and supportive relationship with him, but not at the risk of our mental health.

Our dynamic with him is different that with our other 2 kids, both of whom essentially agree with our assessment.

Just wondering if anyone has experience with such a dynamic, thoughts/strategies as to how to deal with it, and how it turned out over the long run.

2

I was that person, and your son probably won’t like my solution.

It took a combination of our family therapist and my boss at work to convince me that my negative disposition was hurting me in my relationships with my kids, as well in my work. From there I went to a psychiatrist, who diagnosed long-term depression and put me on an anti-depressant, and I took a course in interpersonal skills which taught me that constantly telling people why they’re wrong is not the same as helping guide them to the right answer, and that being “the smartest guy in the room” is NOT a virtue.

Together, the approaches helped me get past seeing everything with a negative view, and getting angry every time people were too stupid to agree with me.

It sounds like your son is not motivated to make a major change in his view of the world (or to consider he might have a chemical imbalance in his brain) so my advice to you is to accept that he is not the kind of person who reaches out and openly expresses affection, he and his wife are in a stable relationship, he has a good career, and he doesn’t seem to be a threat to himself or anyone else.

3

Thanks. I agree, that is good advice. But it hurts to see your kid be unhappy. I’d wager hoping your kids become happy/content adults is pretty much all most parents wish and strive for.

They have no kids, and the 2 of them seem totally in love with each other. We have no desire to tell our kids how to live their lives, nor to live vicariously through them. But we would like a relationship where we were mutually interested in each other and what we were doing. And he’s a smart guy who shares many of my values. I’d like to be able to benefit from his opinions, the same way I wish I could offer him my experience. But my wife doesn’t even want to call him any more, because it really brings her down to hear him sound so angry. She asked our daughter’s opinion, and she said she thinks her brother is angry with the entire world.

I guess I’ve resigned myself to pretty much stepping back and being available if he ever reaches out to us. But I can’t say that’s a posture or a relationship that fills me with joy.

4

I have a sister in law like this. She’s like the character Darlene Conner from Roseanne and The Conners. Everything sucks. She’s smarter than everyone else, She has a decent sense of humor, but in a very biting kind of way, and not sarcastic in any sense. She’s married and has three kids. She’s very protective of her children, but her husband doesn’t escape her contempt nor do any of the rest of us in the family.

It’s difficult for my wife, her sister, as she would like a better relationship with her sister, but to no avail. I basically don’t place a lot creedence in her points of view and chalk her behavior up to her mental state. Luckily we live across the country from them and see them a couple times a year.

5

I have experience with this sort of dynamic, but from the opposite end. Putting myself in your son’s shoes, here is how your post sounds to me.

  • I have an advanced degree and I’m adequately employed.
  • I’m in a good marriage.
  • I have a hobby that you’re utterly uninterested in.
  • I have concerns in my life, and concerns about the world. You dismiss these as “too negative”
  • Yet you complain that you’re the injured party because you don’t get enough attention.

This is hurtful and alienating, and on top of it, you’ve decided that if I don’t want to pay attention to you, then I must certainly be mentally ill. Not only that, but you’ve polled other family members to affirm that there’s something wrong with me (and believe me, I’ve heard all of it).

Do you see the other side of this? Does it even interest you?

6

I might only be thinking this because I’m so into it right now, but your kid seems like he might have problems with rumination. I’m reading a book called Worrying is Optional by Eckart and Coyne, and it is transdiagnostic across all types of anxiety. If he likes podcasts, maybe ask him to listen to this one.
This explains the general approach to metacognitive therapy.

It’s been fascinating for me to learn that I don’t have to engage with certain thoughts, even if those thoughts might be true. Our continued engagement with anxious thoughts is often meant as a distress-reduction or uncertainty-management technique, but our brain learns the wrong lesson: To stay safe, I have to keep thinking about this/working on the problem. That is rumination.

So if he’s constantly pissed off, he’s feeding himself thoughts that keep the cycle going. Maybe he could try being pissed off only for fifteen minutes a day at a certain time of day.

I’m serious. There is solid research to back this up, including a 9-year longitudinal study that found remission in depressive symptoms for the majority of participants, which is almost unheard of in psychological research.

I have no idea how to force someone to get help when they need it, that’s a whole other kettle of fish. When you get to that point, there needs to be some shift within yourself where you accept that how your kid is doing is not your responsibility anymore, and setting boundaries where appropriate (like hanging up when he starts complaining.)

All that said, I do think @HMS_Irruncible may be onto something as well. There are many ways to look at this issue.

It all sounds terribly difficult. I’m sorry.

7

Thank you for pointing out that there is another side. That is well worth acknowledging. Yes, I am interested - but not in solely serving as someone for him to dump on.

I’m not sure your presentation is entirely applicable to my situation. Particularly:

-While I have no personal interest in RP gaming or fantasy fiction, my wife and I have repeatedly proofed and commented on drafts of his published RP game and submitted novels, we contributed to his Kickstart for his game, and we are happy to hear him discuss his participation in various cons. So while it is not anything that interests me personally, I think it unfair to say I am “utterly uninterested” in his hobby/interests.

Heck, I don’t expect him to be personally interested in MY interests. But I would hope that he is glad to hear that his old man enjoyed himself engaging in those interests - while we cast about for topics of mutual interest.

One of my daughters - who is very much into gaming - has stopped on-line sessions with him because he was too negative.

-I think many people would be able to agree when one person’s participation in a conversation pass over from conversing to ranting. Moreover, when he expresses things that anger him, he seems unwilling to consider ways he might be able to respond constructively, or to figure how to deal with things he cannot have any effect on. His attitude is pretty much, “The world and people suck, and there is nothing I can do about it.” I do not for a moment “dismiss” his concerns. I can be about as negative about things as anyone else. But my personal opinion/experience is that just complaining does not do me - or anyone else - much good. And just listening to him - or anyone else - complain, does not do my mental health any good.

-I’m not sure I said I as “the injured party.” I sure do not perceive myself as such. Yeah - maybe I wish for some “attention” from an adult child from whom I am not completely estranged. If only a text on my birthday/Father’s Day/xmas. Or a thank you after we send him a check for his birthday or xmas. He has never asked us to let him alone, so I think a periodic phone call might be something we might both enjoy.

So what are you suggesting I do to improve our relationship? Call him, or don’t call him? And how do I respond when I find his words and actions cause me discomfort? I would happily expend considerable effort, time, attention, and money if I thought it would help make him happier or otherwise improve his situation and prospects. But I don’t have an endless emotional reservoir that can simply hear more and more negative input from him.

If staying out of his life entirely is what would make him the happiest, while that would sadden me, that is what I will do.

8

That seems like it would be very useful to him. And sounds like some things I have worked at incorporating myself. But what do you do if someone pretty clearly has informed you that they do not WANT your suggestions - no matter how well you intend them, or how positively and nonjudgmentally you try to phrase them?

10

My sister-in-law and my mother-in-law (my wife’s sister and mother) definitely have “negative dispositions,” and the primary emotions that they express have a range from annoyance to full-on anger, at pretty much everything. Nothing in their lives – their relationships, their interactions with people in general, the items and services that they buy – live up to their high expectations, and thus, any time spent with them includes hearing a litany of things that have disappointed and/or angered them.

They rarely reach out to us (well, primarily, to my wife) to visit, or just to catch up – if they call, it’s always because they have something to vent about. And, one of the subjects of their ire is frequently my wife herself: because my wife deigns to have hobbies and interests and friends that she likes to spend time on, rather than spending time with her emotionally difficult family, that’s a reason for them to call my wife and yell at her – relatedly, they also get angry at my wife for not being able to subconsciously anticipate what they (SIL and MIL) need and want out of her, and proactively meeting those unspoken needs (“If you actually loved me, you’d know what I wanted!!”).

Both of them are verbally abusive to everyone else as well, including their husbands, and they have very few friends (in fact, at this point in time, I don’t think that my SIL has a single actual friend). My wife recognizes all of this, but she’s unwilling to confront them, because she worries that, if she were to do, they’d completely cut her out of their lives (which my wife still, somehow, thinks would be worse). My wife and I have an agreement, that I don’t have to engage with them very much anymore, in part because I won’t put up with them, and have more than once escalated into shouting matches with them.

FWIW, both of them are solidly middle-class, but their spending habits mean that they are always under financial stress.

I actually do pity them, because they are so clearly just miserable and unhappy and angry about life, the universe, and everything, but that doesn’t mean I want to spend time with them.

11

We were trying to seek help for our child - and our family. I certainly agree that psychologists are fallible. When he was identified as exhibiting sensory integration disorder in 1st grade, we actively participated in his OT, sought additional services through the county, encouraged his interests… But I have never suggested we were perfect parents.

I also believe that some neurologically atypical people and some people with mental/emotional disorders can also exhibit unattractive personality attributes.

And I apologize if I suggested that we “comment on his disposition every time he complains.” I did not intend to communicate that, and we do not do that.

This is what becomes very challenging over time. You think, “Just ONCE, call because something is going well. Instead, you see their name of caller ID and just figure they are going to dump on you.”

13

@Dinsdale have you considered that you may be on the spectrum yourself? A lot of very high functioning people are and given that your son is on the spectrum, the odds of your son having an autistic parent are fairly substantial. I think it could be relevant to your relationship with your son. I don’t mean this at all as an attack, but an explanation for why I’m thinking about this: At least on the internet you often have a manner that can come across as coldly judgmental, yet when you elaborate, you seem less judgmental and more bemused than anything else. It has taken me some time to realize that what you say at first isn’t often what you mean. You seem surprised when people take offense at certain things you say. The confusion about why people do the things they do/think the way they think/act the way they act sounds very familiar to me, as my autistic grandfather is that way. If your kid has social deficits - and being on the spectrum, he must - it’s possible you do, too. And this may be complicating the issue. Just a thought.

I think what I would say is that you’re allowed to set clear boundaries. If this is damaging your mental health, it is okay to figure out what you need and stick to it. The best explanation of boundaries I’ve gotten is that you’re not trying to control the other person’s behavior. But you are communicating what you will do in response to that behavior. He’s welcome to complain all he wants - but you’re not required to listen to it.

This is the hard part. You have to accept it.

You CAN try taking an approach that is less trying to fix whatever you think is wrong with him and more trying to figure out what a relationship of value would look like to him. Is it possible that he’s looking for something from you in all these rants about the government/economics/etc.? I think I would step away from trying to solve him and just work on connecting to him in a genuine way.

But no matter how you slice it, you ultimately have to accept that he doesn’t want your help.

In the case with my mother I just cut her out, but I’ve also just dealt with negativity generally in other loved ones. I have one person extremely close to me who frequently ruminates on the political situation globally (just worrying about the US is insufficient I guess.) I’ve tried to gently steer her around the rumination because it’s destroying her mental health, but I don’t think she’s there yet. It’s frustrating.

It’s important to understand your son is getting something out of all this hyperfixation on negativity. It’s alleviating his anxiety somehow. He’s unlikely to just want to let it go, because letting go is uncomfortable.

…I see no downside to this.

My mother was the kind of person convinced that everyone was out to get her, and you can only put up with being under her suspicion for so long. She managed to alienate every single person in her family, I don’t think there’s a single family member that talks to her. It’s tragic, but literally since I’ve been a teenager I’ve been trying to show her The Way. She chose not to walk the path, I can’t live with her like she is, therefore the relationship is over, and it’s fucking great. Yes, I feel sad sometimes, especially this time of year, and I wonder if she is in much emotional pain being separated from her family, but anyway, I think it’s very different when you’re a parent to a child. My mother was never my responsibility even though it felt like she was. I have been liberated from that.

But I feel like as a parent my primary task is to love my child unconditionally. You’re just not supposed to give up on your kids. It’s a lot harder to set boundaries in a situation like that.

14

Yeah, well, I don’t, either, but I’m not my wife.

Despite the fact that she recognizes that her mom and sister are unreasonable and (frankly) crazy, they are able to get under her skin, and manipulate her into somehow thinking that their anger is at least partially her fault. And, no, my wife won’t go to a counselor to talk about all of it; I’ve suggested this many times.

Part of her reluctance, also, is that her sister has three children (our nieces and nephew), and my wife is convinced that, if she were to cut ties with her sister, her sister would work to poison their minds about my wife, and destroy those relationships.

15

OK, you have put in some effort here, a fair bit more than it initially sounded like. So that’s a strong point in your favor.

Having not been a witness, there is only so much what I can say here. What I can say is some people just need to complain, whether it’s just the psychological function of venting, or it’s just their way of making small talk. The one thing people do not want or need is suggestions on what they should do, or what they shouldn’t worry about. That is guaranteed to be poorly received. I would just let it play itself out, drop in little noncommittal fillers like “yeah that sucks” or “things are crazy these days” or whatever.

It sounds like you find it distressing to hear his complaints go on unanswered. Without witnessing it I can’t speculate on why, but it sounds like maybe that’s where the problem is. He says things you can’t let pass without comment, and you make comments he doesn’t like, or end the call. That’s what I would take another look at.

It’s still not clear why you think you need to do this. You described him as being fairly successful and in a good marriage, it doesn’t sound like he needs anything. It keeps sounding like you want to fix him so that he’s more agreeable to you. If that’s coming through in your attitude, then that’s not a good thing.

16

I’d like to offer two cents from the “simple <> easy” school of thought:

17

I have gotten quite good at letting them pass without comment. But that means the call devolves into him complaining, and me being silent other than vocalizations to communicate that I heard him. My wife initiates most of the calls and does most of the speaking.

Are you a parent? If so, do you not wish some manner of communication/relationship with your child?

Sure have. I clearly process all manner of things differently than many/most people, and am clearly lacking in compassion - for most outside my immediate circle. But whether I have a pathology or am just a jerk, I’ve figured out how to lead a somewhat productive and fulfilling life. And the rest of my family - and several friends - seem to reciprocate my good will. Isn’t that the important thing - whether you carry a diagnosis or not?

My profession has contributed to me being dubious about many aspects of mental health diagnosis and care. But I have participated in counseling - both individually and marital, and have raised the question. And have consistently been told that I am not clearly pathological and can work on improving things without worrying about obtaining a precise diagnosis.

So yeah - maybe I’m on the spectrum of have a personality disorder or something. My wife processes things quite differently than I, used to have a closer relationship with my son than I did, and is more distressed with my son’s recent behavior than I. Maybe she’s on the spectrum as well. Maybe everyone is! So where does that get us? Don’t we all have to figure out how to lead what we think is the best life that we can?

The reference to Eeyore is very apt. Milne was a big figure in my childhood and my childrens’. And several people have referred to my son as Eeyore. Or Joe Btsplk!

18

That’s entirely possible. And that is the reason my Aunt kissed my mother’s ass to stay at my side when I was a kid, because she believed (rightly) that I needed one supportive person in my life. And that is also the reason my Aunt has PTSD from putting up with my mother’s violent tirades. None of that comes without a very real cost.

19

Yes, absolutely. For me, it’s just helpful to know what I’m dealing with. I don’t blame you for being skeptical about the mental health field, because frankly, there is quite a lot of bullshit in it, a lot of people claiming to be experts without a real grounding in the evidence or training, and that’s my particular axe to grind, for different reasons. But there are also real experts, and good research. And I’m not trying to push you into a diagnosis, if you’ve explored that and you don’t find it useful, that’s fine. I’m just the kind of person who says, “Okay, what issue am I dealing with? Is there any research about this? Are there interventions I can try?” That’s how my brain works. So it’s like once the problem is properly categorized it’s easier to find resources. That’s why I find it beneficial to have a diagnosis. But if you feel you are dealing with it just fine, without a label, that’s a valid choice as well.

But it could be helpful, through that framework, to consider that maybe there’s something your son is putting out there that you’re not picking up on. Complicated by the fact that he is autistic and may not be the best at putting it out there.

Have you tried asking him, point blank, how do you think we could make our relationship better?

I wonder what he would say.

20

This is what I was asking you to explain:

From your description, it sounds like his situation and prospects are fine. He’s got a good job, advanced degree, a working marriage. I can’t see anything that needs fixing, it just sounds like you want to fix him so that he’s more tolerable to you.

If we take your side at face value, it does sound like he’s a bad communicator, very selfish. The negativity doesn’t bother me as much as the selfishness. I don’t know what one does about that, have you ever thought about just letting the communication lapse long enough until he initiates? It will be less communication than you’d like, but then at least you’d learn about how he initiates.

21

I’m trying to figure if we have ever phrased it so bluntly, but it sounds like a good idea. I would wager that if asked, he would say he thinks our relationship is just fine.

He’s on the phone right now - he just accepted a new job. (Guess what - he has reservations! ;)). So hopefully that will be a positive development.

22

I recall a book by Dr. James Dobson (admittedly, not the best person to consult on such issues) in which he said he’d far rather be a counselor for an angry fighter, than a depressed go-nowhere, because at least the fighter has active energy that can be channeled into something, whereas the depressed person is a parked car for which turning the steering wheel does no good.