Look, I jumped into your post because I’m protective and defensive of people who’ve suffered abuse, having had plenty of it myself. Your choice of the words “claim” and “assertion” pissed me right off.
However, what I’m trying to get at in this thread is how to assist my friend who’s involved in a love affair with a borderline type person.
Just wanted to throw in my two cents:
I was in a long-term relationship with a woman who had, as a teenager, been diagnosed BPD. We were both in our 30s at the time, and she told me beforehand about the diagnosis, but, I was (in retrospect) extremely naive about such matters. There were no overtly public theatrics in our relationship, like those that have been described in this thread, but there was a fair amount of it at home, in private.
Have you ever had a dream in which some element of the world that you’ve always taken for granted is suddenly gone, or changed? Like suddenly you have to speak in Morse code, or walking anywhere is like pulling against strong rubber bands? And then you wake up and realize it was a dream, and for one wonderful moment there’s this tremendous sense of relief and you think, Oh thank god life isn’t actually like that all the time!
That’s how I felt after that relationship ended, when a month or so had passed and I’d had time to begin recalibrating my sense of concepts like “normal” and “tolerable” and “healthy.”
My experience wasn’t as dramatically soul-crushing as some of those recounted here, but I am glad every single day that I’m out of it.
My mother has (or had, perhaps) BPD. From years and years of observing her numerous doomed romantic relationships, I think the old scientific factoid ‘‘the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior’’ is pretty apt. Every person with this disorder is going to manifest symptoms differently, however, considering that BPD is pretty much defined as ‘‘dysfunction in relationships,’’ this isn’t really something that can be glossed over.
I fully believe that people with BPD are capable of change – it seems to be a pretty consistent characteristic, in fact. But I would question the probability of a BPD being able to change within that relationship. This is because patterns of interaction are so very difficult to modify, even when both parties are heavily invested in the outcome.
My mother repeated the same mistakes with about, er, I’d say at least 15 different guys… she was married and divorced four times. She has a tendency to be attracted to loser men, and when I was growing up she frequently behaved like Chimera’s ex. I saw her mistreat, abuse and berate many, many, men, even driving some good, loyal ones to hate her and to bring out the worst in the assholes. And let’s get real, she sacrificed my well-being for some of those shitty relationships.
The end of her last marriage changed her in some way. She’s still kind of a serial dater, but her current relationship… well, the dude has some major issues, but he’s not abusive, and she’s lost her temper with him and for the first time in her life seems fully aware that it’s wrong of her to do so. I’ve never seen her behave more maturely in a relationship than she is behaving at this moment. She finally realized that her relationships fail because of her behavioral patterns, and is making an honest effort to change with this relationship. But she is also realistic that the relationship may not work out (another first) and really wants to change so that the future, wherever it leads, will be healthier.
My best advice for your friend is: don’t let the patterns get started in the first place. Set boundaries, stick to them, make it clear that you’re not willing to be the punching bag and place the responsibility where it belongs. If she becomes abusive, leave. There really needs to be a straight line between ‘‘abusive behavior’’ and ‘‘the door.’’ Not a threat – a reality. He needs to have the strength to be willing to walk away if things get out of control.
If the patterns are already established though, the probability that she will change is very small. The best he can do is try to change his own behavior and way of relating and see if that is sufficient to push her into behaving in a healthier way. If she doesn’t change, leave.
There is nothing in the world worth tolerating abuse.
Offer to hook me up with a madame who was looking for virgins, while I was living in his house for college (therefore, under his direct authority and 400km from my parents). Once my cherry had been popped, he would have hooked me up with the people from Private. Do you think that qualifies?
And my father wasn’t any kind of terrible human being. Authoritarian yes, but you seem to be skipping a generation and jumping to the wrong side of the family tree.
Good, we’ve talked about this, as if it’s not obvious. Rising to the bait and all that.
And as jackelope says, his reason has gone all out the window. He asks me - what is a friend? The thing is though, it does take two. He hasn’t returned my call from Sunday so he’s either back in there on a high, or detained at her majesty’s pleasure. I don’t mind supporting a friend in crisis, but there has to be some forward momentum.
That’s how I felt when I moved out of my wife’s house. Even though the divorce was a nasty and brutal experience with a crescendo of lies and false accusations, the relief of no longer being trapped in the relationship, the reality of no longer having to deal with so many things, was an incredible relief.
After the fact, there was a whole lot of “Wow, I’d really been tolerating and living with (X, Y and Z) for all that time? What was I thinking?”
I’ve also known a mother who was put in jail for pimping out her own underage daughter.
She was a dentist I went to once, and she’d gone out with a friend of my brother’s briefly. When he heard she was in jail, her ex-boyfriend went down to see what she was in for, thinking he might bail her out. When they told him what she’d been arrested for, he said, “She can stay in there” and left.
When it comes down to it, you can’t force your friend to leave this woman. You can give your honest opinion, and hope he runs with it, but it’s not your responsibility and if you harp on it endlessly, chances are it’s only going to make him more likely to rationalize staying with her. Trust me, I know how frustrating this is to watch someone you love make dumbshit idiotic choices. But it’s not like there’s some magic thing you can say or do that will push him to have that paradigm shift.
The reality is, a lot of people who become enmeshed in these sort of relationships have some issues of their own to work out… if you’re going to allow yourself to be treated like shit, obviously there are some things that need fixing within you. Don’t know your friend’s special brand of ‘‘issues,’’ but it might behoove him to start there. As he works on himself, his own stuff, he will start reacting differently to her, maybe his change will force her to change, or maybe he will finally find the strength to tell her to take a hike. Either way it would probably do him some good to focus on himself rather than letting his universe revolve around her and her drama.
There are all sorts of scenarios in which a child’s grandfather can have that much power, but the most obvious one that occurs to me is that Nava is from Spain, a culture where, until very recently, it was not uncommon for children, their parents and grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, whatever to all live under one roof. Add some good old fashioned patriarchal values to that and you have a recipe for all sorts of grandfatherly abuses of power.
Yeah, I’ve broken the record on how many times I’ve said “friends don’t treat friends like that - why should lovers?”
IANA Doctor or a counselor, just some dweeb on the internet, with a few thoughts that might be helpful.
I think addiction is a very good model, regardless of whether the word clinically fits. (and it might.) To prevent becoming an enabler, think in terms of being willing to go to the ends of the earth to help him get out of the pattern, but doing absolutely nothing to help him stay in it, or* be comfortable* in it.
Sit him down privately and tell him you have made this decision. You think that staying in this is bad for him. You want to be a friend to him, and if he decides to get out of it you are willing to do x, y, and z, to help out. (Could he stay with you? Will you help move boxes? etc. try to build him a picture of getting away which includes friends by his side while he does it.)
Sidebar: People who stay in abusive relationships are often more afraid of being alone than they are of being abused. Don’t become his new crutch.
Then tell him that you will not participate in the drama any more. You will not listen while he talks about it, you will not sympathize. Validate his concerns: “Yes, it’s inappropriate and even dangerous behavior you have encountered; however, your choice to stay with it is beginning to affect me, (if only your mood) and I refuse to become collateral damage.”
Take his calls, invite him out, change the subject when he brings her up. If he tries to talk about it, ask pointedly “Have you had enough yet?” If he says “no” answer “Then I don’t want to hear it.”
hth
Thanks TruCelt - that’s great. He lives by himself, he did think of coming to live by me (I have a guest shack) it would be cheaper for him, but of course I said no dramatic women allowed.
“Have you had enough yet?” If he says “no” answer “Then I don’t want to hear it.”
He’s going to say “yes” but we will both know it’s a lie so what about, I don’t want to hear about it until you can say that and mean it.
The kids’ mom is certifiable. Her dad was schizophrenic. He heard voices, which he said was God. He was a child molester and believed the government listened to our phone conversations. He beat his children and scammed the welfare system. He started his own militia and even made neato badges for it. He never bathed and wore the same suit every day. Every. Day. He tried to sweet talk me into investing in many of his get-rich-quick schemes, which I never ever gave him money for. Oh and then there’s the time he kidnapped our daughter because she was marrying some filthy beaner (me). As soon as she broke it off he’d return her. We got her back by eventually befriending them… and just taking off with her.
She’s totally BPD. Hmmmm, what stands out? Well, there was the time she called every 20 minutes whenever I’d leave the house. If she called and I didn’t answer, I was obviously fucking some skank somewhere. She would call over and over and over and over until I answered. As soon as I answered she’s shriek “WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN??” Then the tirade of accusations of cheating ensued. I got quite tired of explaining every little thing I did while I was away from her direct line of sight.
She watched my work schedules, commute times, kept track of my lunch breaks and would frequently call while I was on lunch. If I didn’t answer, the only obvious answer was I was fucking one of my coworkers and too busy to talk. I would hear about this. Sometimes she would call my work phone ‘just to chat’ but really it was to check on me.
One time she started a screaming match because I didn’t close the kitchen drawers all the way.
She thought nothing of calling me a loser, a pervert, a faggot, a sex fiend, or a drug dealer right in front of the children. It’s how she felt and who the hell am I to tell her what she can or cannot feel? :rolleyes: I found out later when the divorce happened she turned our daughter into her BFF and talked to her at length about every sordid detail about the divorce. Which of course made her hate me for years, the damage of which is mostly repaired.
Every single job she has ever had she had Some Crisis where HR was involved. Every job. Usually more than once. Most of the time it was for some perceived slight about a policy but once it was sexual harassment.
She has no concept of empathy or forgiveness. I know this because it was something we’d discuss and I would try to teach her. She literally had no concept of how to see how her treatment of people caused the reactions she’d get.
She used to threaten me with divorce as a way to control me. When I stopped being a pussy (and begging her not to go) and started telling her to GTFO and go sign the papers she would get angry and screaming.
And I don’t even want to go into how the divorce started, we’ll be here forever! All these things would happen at random. She’d be fine and happy and funny and literally within two sentences she’d get The Voice. It sounded like if your mom tried to yell at you in church. Lots of hate and anger but under tight control just barely restrained. I knew when I heard that tone it didn’t matter what I said, it was only a matter of time before the yelling started.
I can’t believe I was with that bitch for 11 years. I hear she’s getting married again.
Interesting. Yesterday he found a table I need, I was supposed to call him to arrange to pick it up when I’d done work. Just as I was thinking of calling he calls. Apologies, his phone went flat and he’s borrowing someones battery to make the call. Sorry. Did I call him? Sorry. He’s really sorry. Me :dubious: Dude, you’re the one trying to do me a favour - what’s with all the apologies? If I had made the call and not got through I would have just tried again a bit later, and **thought nothing of it. **
In fact now I realize this is quite a common reaction for him. There’s a million reasons for not answering the phone, for not returning a call. Thing is, I hadn’t called him. You don’t need to justify yourself, but obviously he’s getting used to having to do so - it’s becoming a second nature.
“Dude, you’ve been dealing with this abuse for so long, youa re starting to expect it from everybody.”
He needs you to say these things. Gently, then remind him that you are his friend. But point things out, because he’s so deep in the hole that all he can see is the walls.
I’m another who thinks my mother was. And while I am less inclined to say negative things about her, now that she’s dead, I can never comprehend people who get into these relationships as an adult. I wish I could put some of my memories into people’s heads so they would steer clear of these people.
I have some understanding now of why my mom was the way she was. However, it is still not an excuse.
I hope your friend gets out soon.
Next time I’ll just patch him through to you 
He says Boo, you’re always happy. I said, no, but I don’t just bite your head off when I’m not. You’re my friend not my punch bag.
So … I forgot to buy milk and I blamed the dog. Why is the dog to blame he asks. Well, it can’t be my fault can it? Can it? Aha! I think the penny dropped there for a minute.
Thanks, and thanks Olives too. You know what they say “If it’s not one thing it’s your mother” This woman has three small daughters, so shudder.
:eek:
My heart bleeds for them.
Maybe they are very naive or don’t have a lot of healthy relationship experiance.
Or they think they can “reform” them or whatever.
I know someone who dated a borderline b/c she was a “pure” born-again PRAISE JESUS Christian. Also a lot of times borderlines can appear “normal” and not show their true colors…just like the way my jr high gym teacher was SO popular, but later turned out to be a pedophile.
Borderlines can fake it…but underneath they are emotionally 13 years old.
A question: an acquaintance says she’s Borderline. Our mutual friends who’ve know her for many years will tell you of the bad old days when she would show up at their houses covered in blood, cuts all over her body. As I understand it, that behavior stopped once her friends starting putting their feet down. But now, today, at the age of 40 (I’ve known her only a few years) she seems to me to mostly be a compulsive liar who exaggerates every little thing into a drama so that she’s always the focus of attention.
Is it possible that claiming to be Borderline and engaging in Borderline-like behavior was itself an exaggeration? She doesn’t seem to do anything anymore like she was notorious for in the past. Is it possible her claim to BPD was just another in a series of lies garnered to get attention?
(I don’t doubt she has real issues. I just doubt she’s really BPD. Her friends stop responding and all the sudden she gets better?)