Narcissistic and borderline personality disorders

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

This guy I have been involved with off and on for the last 6 years was diagnosed a few months ago with Narcissistic Personality Disorder with traits of Borderline Personality Disorder. Personally I think there tends to be a pretty high degree of subjectivity in psychological diagnoses, but it is not a stretch AT ALL to believe this about him. In fact, I’ve thought for years that the descriptions of NPD and BPD sounded a whole lot like him. He’s such a narcissist sometimes that it is astounding. It’s not when he doesn’t care that he’s being a jerk, it’s when he’s really TRYING to get along and work things out and say the right things. When I stop seeing him, he does not handle it well, to say the least. He tries so hard to get me to change my mind, but just does not seem to be capable of conceiving of the idea that some things occasionally might not be about him. When I tell him I don’t want to see him anymore because of how it’s affecting me and that this is not what I want, he never, ever responds to that. It’s always, “but I need you” and “but I’m really trying” and “but you don’t understand what I’ve been through”. I’ve tried to explain that there comes a point when it doesn’t MATTER how hard he’s trying or how much he needs me; I can’t “help” him to my own detriment. Almost every serial killer had a childhood that would break your heart and probably never had any chance at turning out decent, but I’m still not going to associate with one. (Of course then he just thought I was likening him to a serial killer…he never gets my point on these things.)

So, I guess I have to explain why I do see him in the first place. It’s not like it’s all bad or that I just feel obligated. We can have the best time together and I miss him a lot when I don’t see him. I’m always overlooking some things to some degree, but there can be times when things mostly seem fine and I feel very close to him. I want to say that other than his personality disorders, we are great together. And that brings me to the question: IS there “other than his personality disorders”? Does it even make any sense at all to think that way? Are personality disorders so all-consuming that the best thing anyone else can do is run the other direction? I mean, speaking as a person who is not obligated to this person. If it was my child or something, that would obviously be different. But I can walk away from this dude if I want to.

Can a narcissist/borderline actually change? And if they did, would they change into something unrecognizable because narcissism was such an integral part of every aspect of their personality? He always swears he’ll change, and he has changed significantly in some ways, but I just never know if it’s real or just more manipulation and self-interest. And, is it really progress if he doesn’t do these completely unacceptable things AS OFTEN? I kind of don’t think they’re really matters of degree; I think that EVER acting as he sometimes does indicates a huge underlying problem. For example, he used to call me bitch on a regular basis. Now he hardly ever does, but he refers to other women as bitches (I tell him to stop, and he does, for right then) and he calls me other, less offensive names like spoiled white girl pretty often. If you’re really going to stop being a misogynist, can it be a gradual change? Does it mean he’s getting better, but it takes time, or has he just mellowed out some as he’s gotten older and also knows I will no longer take the abuse that I did when I was young and naïve?

I’m not sure if he’s getting treatment, by the way. He says he is, but his tendency to put his own spin on things and his lack of follow-through has me wondering how true it is. I know he has gone at least a few times and got diagnosed, but that’s all I know. And he did say I should go with him sometime and I could talk to the therapist and stuff, but basically my point is that whether or not he’s getting treatment can’t really be what I base my decision on because his approach to that is just like his approach to everything else.

If anyone has dealt with people like this, I would like to hear your thoughts.

2

I had a mother that clearly had some kind of personality disorder. My slightly informed layman’s diagnosis would be narcissism with some tendency toward antisocial or borderline tendencies. She would do things like deliver harsh punishments (whipping, slapping, making me stand on one foot for scores of minutes) with arbitrary enforcement. I was often required to come up with the transgression I was being punished for, or I would be punished for some real or perceived transgression of another person. This got worse as I got older, and especially after my parents separated and I was the sole target of her anger and aggression. At times she would do things like stop the car in the middle of nowhere and force me to walk home several miles, often in inclement weather or darkness, or lock me out of the house (or at least in the garage). One of her favorites was to ‘bump’ me with the front bumper of the car as I was opening the garage door. She would bring home random guys and then get angry with me when the neighbor kids harassed and bullied me about her ‘activities’ that were in opposition to the small town fundie Christian morality that was enforced.

At no time did she ever acknowledge that this was inappropriate behavior, and in fact when called out on it she completely disavowed it. When there was undeniable evidence of malfeasance–for instance when she emptied the savings account that she was the secondary account holder (but the money was all earned by me)–she justified it in terms of what I had cost her in food, clothes, et cetera.

The thing is she was an intelligent, funny, charming woman to most people. She was generally well liked and respected by people who only knew her superficially. She obtained a graduate degree in remedial education and worked as a respected special education and early childhood development expert. She even managed to sell her family–who had seen much of her mercurial behavior–that I had done great wrong to her and stolen things from her when I left home at 16 (with little more than the few clothes I owned, some books, and a bucket of Legos), to the point that they would not communicate with me. I’ve alienated a lot of people from my life because of this, and others react with suspicion and disgust when I’m forced to make even the most superficial reference to it. (I hate it when the topic of family comes up on dates, as there just is no good answer that comes out of, “I don’t have any.”) But my life was measurably improved from the time I walked away onward, and even though there have been issues to deal with and very low spots, I believe I dealt with life better without her around.

My point? People with atavistic and antisocial personality disorders can seem functional and personable enough of the time to get along, and in fact the better they are at this the less incentive they have to change. They will also latch onto you and fuck you up in ways you don’t even want to imagine, and there is nothing you can really do to modify their behavior. They will expect you to bend around their particular disorder and will either warp you or dispense with you as they see fit. ‘Getting treatment’ is typically just another in a line of excuses; unless the disorder is causing a recognized problem for the patient it can just become another in a series of lies or self-reinforcing behaviors. (There is nothing like an overly sympathetic counsellor–and many are despite training–to feed neurosis into full bloom and justify and degree of bullshit.)

It is a mistake to enter a relationship or stay in one on the basis of making the other person change, and unless they have some kind of incentive to alter core behavior (such as an alcoholic sincerely wanting to stop drinking) there is absolutely no motivation to change. By being with such a person you naturally have to become an enabler; to accommodate and excuse the behavior of the party in question, and then you get sucked into the same cycle of bullshit.

Do yourself a favor and cut loose someone who only lives to suck off you, blame you for their problems, or makes you miserable most of the time you are around them. If you are or aspire to be a (mostly) happy and healthy person you deserve better than this.

Stranger

3

I don’t know how much I can answer you’re question because it seems very complicated. At the same time though, as I read over your whole post, I notice you point the finger at him and simply speak only of your problems. You say, “I want to say that other than his personality disorders, we are great together.” and you call him narcissitic.

Maybe I’m way off-course here, but as the saying goes, it takes two to tango. Or maybe I am completely wrong, and you would be great together if it wasn’t for his personality disorders… I dunno… what do you think?

4

I keep being told how nice and charming my mother and my grandfather are. That’s the Grandfather from Hell (the one who’s sexually abused every single one of his children and grandchildren) and his eldest daughter, the woman who upon hearing he’d tried to prostitute me threatened with never letting me set foot in her house again if Dad ever heard about it (ie, if I broke her carefully-built snowbubble of a life).

When someone is that poisonous, the best thing you can share with them is a lot of distance in between, no matter how charming they can be.

5

I may have inadvertantly made it sound otherwise, but believe me, I KNOW I have some issues too. But at the same time, I don’t believe I have a personality disorder, and I don’t believe I’m toxic to everyone I closely associate with. Him, I’m not so sure.

I know that several years ago, his issues were bad enough that there’s NOTHING I could have done to make things any better. I’m just not sure if that’s still true or not. But if it is, I don’t want to keep wasting my time trying. Because I really do try to get along with him and make sure I’m fair and reasonable. Nobody who has been abused needs to be reminded to look at their own faults too.

6

Are you serious? Trust me, you know WAY more about this guy than anybody here does just from the DSM code, and I’m sure way more than the psychiatrist who diagnosed him too. And I’m sure he’d tell you that too.

A “personality disorder” is just a five digit code used by psychiatrists for insurance and research purposes so really huge, ineffable, complicated and controversial concepts like problems with your personality can reduced to a number they write on their forms. It’s like a credit score - it takes a lot of information and reduces it to something that can be punched into a computer. Which has it’s uses. But it sure as hell doesn’t give you more information. It gives you less.

There are like ten of them that have been “predefined” - which roughly amount to: the narcissists, the fussbudgets, the weirdos, the vamps, the unstable, the paranoid, the helpless, the clingy, the vulcans, the wallflowers and the thugs. And to show you how crappy that system is, most people with “personality disorders” still get the “NOS” specifier - which means - none of the above (but something sure as hell is wrong with him).

So basically you’re telling us: the psychiatrist has said my boyfriend is an unstable narcissist. (Which you knew). Tell em everything about him. And will he change?

7

My sister-in-law’s stepfather has a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. He eventually changed his behavior with lots and lots of therapy and effort, but he had to hit rock bottom with his wife first, and the whole family went through hell and back through the course of many years. If you aren’t married to this guy and don’t have kids with him, you’re better off bailing. In other words, it’s possible for someone with NPD to get better, but it takes a ton of worK (work that he’ll have to want to do and be devoted to doing) and many, many years, and maye never. I think their case is an exceptionally positive outcome.

Note to ScottyMo: the OP’s boyfriend was diagnosed with NPD, so she shouldn’t have to justify the label further. That’s way beyond just “calling him narcissistic.”

8

No, it’s not what I’m saying. I realize there are limitations to the usefulness of labeling someone with a personality disorder, but there is SOME use. The people who came up with the criteria for NPD and BPD didn’t know him either and still managed to describe him remarkably well. I figured other people here had dealt with similar situations and we could discuss it. And it looks like I was right.

9

Run far.

Run Fast.

You deserve someone better.

10

I strongly, strongly suspect my mother has NPD (with some elements of BPD). There is no “other than the personality disorders.” That particular personality disorder is the person. The reason you think you’ve seen improvement is that he’s learning to take his cues from you and behave in a way he thinks you would find acceptable–that’s not improving, that’s just being a better mimic. People with NPD don’t understand how the world works. They don’t grasp why humans do the things they do, or why they interact the way they do. In fact, other people’s lives are more or less meaningless to them. The best they can do is just mimic what they see other people doing.

And in order for treatment to work, people with NPD have to admit there’s something wrong with them. Except, narcissists can’t admit there’s something wrong with them–that’s part of being a narcissist. Narcissists are also hugely manipulative and can be quite charming if they need to be. Right now, your boyfriend thinks he needs something from you. Being charming and taking his cues from you has some sort of positive net gain for him. One of these days, that won’t be the case anymore.

11

Stop rationalizing. Stop picking apart “the relationship”.

**RUN!

My best friend’s mother is 85, the very model of NPD, and has made my friend’s life living hell for 40 years, and it continues to this day. My friend has had a traumatic couple of years - divorce, money worries, dysfunctional offspring, emotional meltdowns. Finally has a bit of happiness due to a new relationship. Her mother is "ALL ABOUT ME ME ME]** - mean, jealous, petty, self-centerd, button pushing, demanding old BITCH. If you have children with your new friend someday, is that what you want your kids to go through?

12

Going to pretty much say the same thing.

With people like this, everything devolves to being about them.

And you will never convince them that they are wrong. It’s everyone else that is wrong. The world is unfair, other people are picking on them, they just have bad luck, blah, blah, blah.

As you note, blackberry, he’s good at telling you what you want to hear to make problems go away, but there’s no followup. Because all he wants to do is make the problem go away without having to change his own behavior.

13

Just a thought, based on my own personal experience: If he changes–which is theoretically possible, though I don’t know from what you’ve described–then all of him changes, including his outlook on your relationship. He might need to separate himself from the person he was, or he just might look on your relationship as toxic or enabling (fair or not). You putting up with him now does not do either of you any favors, because if he grows into a different person, he may very well grow away from you.

14

blackberry this may be a good parting gift for this relationship.

15

So, other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

I have a cousin a whole lot like this guy, except she’s never been evaluated for mental illness/personality disorders. When she’s in charm mode, she’s more fun than a barrel of monkeys and we had some really great times together growing up and as young adults. When she slips out of charm mode, she is vicious, and in either mode everything is all about her–but it’s typically dismissed as her being “high-strung” or “artistic” or “having a dramatic personality” or “just how she is.” Aside from her turning on you like a cornered wolverine from time to time and her needing tons of emotional support that she’s not willing to reciprocate, she’s a fantastic friend.

And thus you will notice the use of past tense in that sentence about all our good times. Disengaging from her and the charm-charm-shitstorm-charm merry-go-round is the best decision I’ve ever made.

16

Having known a couple of people like this I don’t think they can really change because they just don’t understand how they’re different. They can change their outward behavior to get something that benefits them but as far as really caring for another person I don’t think it’s possible.

It’s sad because you can tell they’re missing something as far as emotions go and sometimes they can tell they’re missing something but they don’t know how to or can’t have the same feelings as most people.

17

That would make a lot of sense, but that’s another thing I don’t get. 6 years ago when we met, I put up with way too much from him and I shudder to think about it now. It’s not hard to see what he was getting out of that. But then I gathered the strength and insight to cut contact with him, and that lasted 2 1/2 years. If he liked me so much then, I don’t know why he still does, because now things are totally different. And, sad to say, there are so many other women he could still treat that way and get away with it. He has a lot of admirers. He’s extremely charming and charismatic and attractive, like a good narcissist.

So my point is, there really IS something about me that is special to him, but I don’t know what (don’t mean to sound all low self-esteem there…I know what people could like about me, just not him if he’s 100% all about himself). I don’t think he’ll ever leave me alone voluntarily, and he concurs.

I could be wrong, but if he did change, I think he’d credit me for it in part (as he always does for the changes he has made) because I call him on his shit, which no one else seems to do. I could understand him wanting me for purely self-serving reasons then OR now…but I can’t understand both because there’s no way I’m serving the same role now as I did 6 years ago. He insists it’s just because he loves me so much, but no, I don’t think that’s it either.

18

LOL I love someecards. He would totally love that and wear it though.

Also way too fitting would be this one: http://www.someecards.com/card/sorry-you-don-t-understand-how-important-i-am

19

I concur with Shirley. Run far, run fast, start now.

I’ll make an exception IF and ONLY if you are in a totally committed relationship, and he’s willing to have you along as part of his therapy and behavior modification process (and not just “be in treatment” with you not involved). And if that sounds like more than you want to deal with, then my first advice again applies.

20

Well, unlike some other random admirer who finds him charming, you’ve proved that you’ll give him multiple second chances in exchange for mild improvements in his behavior.

It’s hard to tell whether he approaches the level of monstrosity displayed by some of the people in other Dopers’ posts. It is a bit worrisome that you don’t know for sure whether or not he’s actually getting treatment. Take him up on his offer to go with him. See a therapist yourself, if you can afford it. To build on what Alma wrote – if he is not too far gone and honestly wants to change, for himself or because he loves you, he may have to do it on his own.