How do I tell some Christian friends that the following statement is not true:
*Unfortunately in the Qur’an, Muslims are taught to “not make friends with Jews or Christians”, and “if they are not to be converted, they are to be killed.” *
It seems they are taking things from the Qur’an out of context, how can I prove them to be wrong?
Thanks
Gus
It’s up to them to first prove they are right. You’re giving up a crucial advantage in this argument, which is the burden of proof. The burden is on them, because they made the claim.
The people who are best positioned to tell you “what Muslims are taught” are Muslims. You need to look for Muslim commentary on the verses in question, what they mean, how they are to be applied, etc.
Comparatively little of this will be in English, of course, since English-speakers are a small minority in Islam. But a google search for “not make friends with Jews or Christians” brought me fairly quickly to here:
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/ShafiqPaper1_0.pdf
. . . where the question is discussed by a Muslim author, addressing Muslims.
Be aware, though, that Islam is not a hierarchical religion. There is no single person or body with authority to define, interpret, apply, etc, the Qu’ran. Different Islamic teachers may offer different perspectives, and each teacher has as much - or as little - authority and influence as the communit accords to him. The fact that you can find a commentator who offers this take on the verses in question (or, for that matter, one who offers a violent and antisemitic take on them) does not mean that the commentator concerned necessarily has much influence, or finds many Muslims who agree with him.
You could always ask them to talk with a Catholic about the ways they use to justify the Old Testament… however, there is a better (although longer, really longer, way): メンテナンス中
Here’s what the Quran has to say about Christians and Jews, “People of the Book” as the sister Abrahamic religions are known to Islam.
Well on the subject of muslims…here is one.
Lot of the the Quran’s verses have to be read in context of what they were revealed in, the Quran is not the bible that it can be taken literally. Many of the “Jews are bad” verses refer to the Jews of Medina who allied with the Meccans against the Muslims (in a couple of cases after agreeing to do otherwise) and were considered an existantial threat.
I’d think history is a pretty good refutation, as Christians and Muslims lived cheek and Jowl together in the Middle East for literally centuries after the Muslims conquered the lands from the Byzantines (who seemed pretty bloody minded about suppressing forms of fellow Christianity they didn’t care for).
This is a silly and unhelpful bit of advice, and precious to boot. While technically correct in formal argumentation, it’s sheer bollocks as a discussion strategy in informal contexts.
That seems pretty helpful there.
But weren’t non-Islamists oppressed? Dhimmi, right?
dhimmi means protected. It went like this, if your were willing to fight (be on army rolls and be called up) you had the same status as muslims did. If you were not willing, you had to pay a tax.
And what do you mean by “Islamists”.
In other words, you’re assuming they’re wrong even though you have no idea why. :dubious:
Why not just ask them what makes them think that. If they cite the Koran, look the passages up yourself and decide if they’re misinterpreting/out of context/whatever, approaching the question with an open mind?
I happen to have Muslim freinds; but I also know that there are some problematic passages in nearly all scriptures that modern-day believers of all faiths interpret somewhat expansively.
Islam is like Christianity: lots of different takes, interpretations, politics, etc. Are you or your friends Christians? If so, try reading the Old Testament sometime and see how many offensive things and crazy rules it has. Hint: its a lot.
I think Islam is only slightly more offensive than xtianity because Muhammed was a warlord who maintained an army as large as 10,000 men who conquered much of his region. So there’s a lot more in there from a warriors perspective. Both religions really are based on the ramblings of bloodthirsty epileptics who never saw slavery, mass slaughter, and murder of non-believers as a problem. Purposely picking on Islam is unfair.
You have to define your terms, what does “friends” mean?
There is a huge difference between being friendly and being friends. I’m friendly to virtually every person I meet but I would call all but a few friends.
Islam is different from Judaism and Christianity as it was developed in a time where records could be (somewhat) accurately kept. Thus the ability to interpret is limited a lot. Usually when an issue arises it falls back to the old “only the Koran read in Arabic can be correctly interpreted”
This is because the Koran is EXACTLY the word of God, it’s not someone writing the words down and could possibly get it wrong. It is EXACTLY what God means. BUT it is only the word of God in Arabic, in other languages it is an interpretation. This seems to be a bit strange that God only likes Arabic and would allow flaws for everyone else.
Muslims have lived with Jews, Christians and other side by side for centuries and while they’ve been friendly, were they “friends?” Jews lived by Christians in the USA and for a large part of this, the relations were friendly but it was hardly a friendship of communities.
Christianity has the biblical verse “bad associations spoil useful habits” this means you should avoid bad associations but it doesn’t mean you shun people all together.
Islam does impose death for certain things like conversion TO other religions (apostasy), provided it’s not done through ignorance and distress. Of course the term ignorance, leaves a HUGE margin open. Some schools of Islam do not apply this to women who marry and convert to their husband’s religion.
The problem with the OP’s question is that it’s too open ended. Yes it would be easy to make a case where to some Muslims all which he said is true. But not all Muslims.
The same way certain religious groups like Quakers tend to shun others.
If a person were to state what the OP stated he wouldn’t be wrong, but he wouldn’t be correct either. A blanket statement either way doesn’t work.
never mind
Because technically Judaists and Christians are Moslems, aren’t they? Perhaps a better term would have been Mahomedans.
This may be the most reasonable answer. There are passages in the Qur’an that can be taken, baldly, to mean what the OP referenced. And while the counter-argument that they are taken out of context is in fact a perfectly reasonable one, I wouldn’t doubt that you could find Muslims espousing such views.
ETA: But I will add that historically such views would be minority ones ( certainly at least re: killing Christians if they didn’t convert ).
Mmmm? No. I’m not sure where that comes from, unless you are referring to the Muslim notion that Abraham et al were “Muslims” and that Judaism and Christianity are corrupted straying from that original path. But if so it doesn’t mean that Jews and Christians are considered Muslims by Muslims.
That’s occasionally considered as a very mildly offensive term ( more generally it is considered archaic ), in that when written by Christian writers it is sometimes taken as the implied heretical notion ( to Muslims ) that Muslims worship Muhammed, as Christians worship Christ.
Thanks to everyone for their helpful answers; I’ve enjoyed reading them all.
Gus