I know someone who works in a (Canadian) liquor store. the policy if there is any doubt about the person’s age, is to demand current ID. Expired ID is not acceptable, since it could have been discarded by the original owner. The quality on some license pics leaves a little to be desired, I’ve heard of people using their sibling’s old drivers license and looking close enough to get by.
Another point - the policy also is - if the liquor store clerk decides for some reason not to sell to you - invalid ID, you appear drunk, you are with another person who has no ID and it appears you are buying for that person - then they cannot be “persuaded” to change that judgement. Go to another store. Arguing is not allowed to work, by policy. The only thing that would change their mind is if your ID was not sufficient and you produce proper ID.
You know what would happen. They’d offer you a plea bargain for a few months in prison, with the threat of getting years if you go to trial. If you gamble with your life and fight the charges in court, and you win, you will receive no compensation for the lost time and money despite being found not guilty.
As to whether an expired ID is still ID ? The fact is that ID is just worth as much as the person looking at it agrees it is worth… You can say that the person (eg bouncer at door) is breaching the instruction provided by their organization, but the person can say it looked fake so as of no value…
The point is that the expired license may be left at home, and a sibling may then borrow it … as it was of no value to the real owner…The bouncer may say “because your picture doesnt look perfectly like you AND its an expired license , I don’t trust it.”
Similarly the owner of a license doesn’t want their siblings to have a non-expired license, as the police may put breaches of the law on the wrong siblings record… if its an expired license,police will also then think "we have to check this is a valid ID very carefully ? "
If the bouncer would have accepted the photo of the sibling, he would have accepted it regardless of how it was “borrowed”. Still valid or not. Does not compute.
California renews licenses by mail as long as the driver has a clean record, but once every so many renewals you have to do it in person. When you renew by mail, you don’t have to send back your old one. You’re just supposed to destroy it like you do with old credit cards. I usually just leave them laying around for years and years until I get a round tuit.
The point is a person probably does not want to part with current, valid ID because they need it. You can be ticketed in many places for not having your driver’s license on you, for example. An expired license could have been found, borrowed, or given. The original owner has no incentive to keep it, and could simply say they did not authorize its use if it pops up somewhere. Hence it is much less reliable than a current one.
Face matching pictures, like matching signature, is a subjective art - especially when a bouncer is trying to validate it is standing outside in poor lighting and the person they are looking at is heavily made up compared to the photo.
This is exactly what I did when I went away to college over 30 years ago. My brother went off and left his expired license at home and my roommate was a better match than I was to him so I just let him use it. I got many a free drink off of that license.
I think the shock is from the fact that you actually have to wait for the license in the mail at all, even when done in person. When I renew my license, I go to the BMV, hand my old license, confirm a few facts, pay the renewal fee, stand for a picture and wait two minutes while my license is produced behind the counter, and then I’m handed my license and I walk out the door.
Where I used to live, when you renewed your license prior to its expiration (as for a change of address), they would take a pair of scissors and cut the word “LICENSE” and state seal from old license and hand you a paper license, saying that the old license would work for identification, but you needed it and the paper one for driving. Where I live now, they just confiscate your old one and give you a new one, on the spot.
The TSA will definitely accept an expired drivers license for getting through airport security (along with an appropriate boarding pass). I went on a trip right after my license expired (I wasn’t aware it had expired), and the TSA guy said nothing about it. At my destination, the rental car place wouldn’t rent me a car (my guess is their computer system has your license expiration date so it flags the clerk to check for it). I had someone else rent the car, but on my return, the TSA guy told me my license was expired. He said that it was OK for boarding, but I really needed to get a new one. I had to go to the bank before I renewed and the teller said the same thing.
My guess is that an expired license is not suitable for driving, but can be accepted as identification. I say “can be” since anyone who asks for an ID can reject any document you supply if they believe it is fraudulent. In some cases, the penalty for accepting a fraudulent ID is a bit severe (as in alcohol sales), so it wouldn’t surprise me for a clerk to use “it’s expired” as a reason to reject it.
ETA: The license with the state seal cut off is not a valid license, even if the expiration date is still good. The clerk at the DPS was sure to make sure I understood that.
My question is–How many states make you wait to get your renewed license by mail. When I go in next week to get mine done in Ohio, they snap my pic and I walk out with the new one in 5-10 minutes.
That is an old idea from the prohibitionists, butt of many jokes. It runs roughly like this: Heroin is bad for you. A little Heroin is bad for you. Therefore we must ban chocolate flavoured with Heroin.
But I’m not surprised that a store with a licker license gets into trouble for selling small amounts of liquor: you have to draw the line somewhere, and for liquor stores, it’s easiest and clearist to draw it tight.
Around here, stores have gotten into trouble for selling pint bottles of vanilla essence to under-age kids, and selling half-pints of “cherries in cherry liquor” to retired Italian gentlemen who are certainly not playing cards for money.
Samclem, I don’t know what the license procedure is in Ohio; here in California, once the tests and procedures are completed, the DMV clerk goes back to the computer, and its printer issues a temporary license–no picture. The clerk said I should wait until August 10 ( I was at the DMV on June 12), and if I didn’t get it by then to contact DMV again.
This last year DMV has been redesigning the license; I’ m surprised it came as soon as it did.
Samclem, I don’t know what the license procedure is in Ohio; here in California, once the tests and procedures are completed, the DMV clerk goes back to the computer, and its printer issues a temporary license–no picture. The clerk said I should wait until August 10 ( I was at the DMV on June 12), and if I didn’t get it by then to contact DMV again.
This last year DMV has been redesigning the license; I’ m surprised it came as soon as it did.
Whatever other grousing everyone does about DMV (everybody’s favorite grousable agency in every state), California DMV seems to have their shit together when it comes to renewing licenses and annual vehicle registrations. They send out the renewal notices, with the necessary paperwork, about six weeks ahead of time. Once you send the papers and fee back, you get your new license or registration tags fairly quickly. They say to wait patiently for six weeks (or something like that) before you start to make a fuss, but in fact you get the stuff in about two weeks. So if you send in the papers promptly, you’ll get your new papers promptly.
But every so often, you have to renew your license in person. When that happens, you have to take the silly written exam and the simple eye chart test. I think for drivers above a certain age, there might be more to it. I’ve forgotten already how it worked – I think I still had to wait to get the new license in the mail, and I don’t remember if they took away my old license.
Similar in Michigan. I don’t understand the constant DMV jokes in popular media for my entire lifetime. Granted, we don’t have a DMV as the Secretary of State fulfills that role. Cool things:
[ul]
[li]Our insurance certificates have a PIN. This means we can use web forms and not present proof of insurance for renewing.[/li][li]If I want to go to SoS, I can use the vending machine in the lobby instead of getting a number.[/li][li]If I want to talk to a person, I can grab a number and have a seat in the large lobby.[/li][li]Trailer plates are now lifetime plates.[/li][li]We can add state parks pass to our license tabs. It’s the best entertainment deal in the state, and having it on our tabs lets the gate workers just wave us on through.[/li][/ul]
We do still have to wait for the mail to deliver new drivers licenses, though.
When I got my license in Oregon eight years ago, this is how it was done. I got the real thing right on the spot.
Last week, I had to renew; after they snapped my picture they informed me my new license will arrive in the mail in 5 to 10 days. I’m scratching my head as to why Oregon has “regressed.”
Long shot, but for buying alcohol, if you present an expired license it’s more likely to not be yours. Your 21 year old friend may have just gotten her new one and handed you her old one.
When I took my bartender’s class one of the things we were taught (not that anyone actually does it) was to question people that have “Duplicate” written on their ID and see if they stammer coming up with an answer (of course they will, why would the bouncer be asking them that question).
For a bank, I have no problem with them not accepting an expired ID. Look at it this way, what if you had all the money drained out of your account and when you went to the bank and they looked into and pulled the security footage it turned out that the person that took your money presented an ID that you lost years ago. At least this way those old IDs ‘go bad’ after a while.
Also, if you take a look at Form I-9, all the IDs you need for getting a job must be unexpired, though they will accept a receipt that states that you’re in the process of getting a new one.
In the UK driver’s licences (with photo) are good as ID for most things and since they don’t expire, it’s best not to lose them, although copies are fairly ease to get - for a fee.
In university towns, a student union card is often acceptable as ID in bars and clubs. Of course you only need to be 18 and they only ask if you look younger. If you want to buy a carving knife, tobacco or some glue in a shop - they want to see proof that you are over 18 too. Some councils have their own schemes to help bridge the gap between reaching 18 and getting a driving licence.
One time they won’t work though is if you want to get work (legally). Employers are required to check all employees status as EU citizens and a passport is pretty much the universal document for that. Anyone without a passport has several hoops to jump through to prove it.
Of course, as in most countries the world over, there is an off-grid system, where if you stand in the right place at the right time, someone will come along and offer you a day picking cabbages for a pound an hour.
