Well, after reading one or two threads in the AoC forum about an upcoming fix to PvP, it seems that the only people upset about it are griefers. From what I gather they’re going to implement a system where if you kill someone thats a certain level below you, you go to “jail”. I haven’t worked out what that entails yet, but its obviously not supposed to be fun. Its kind of disappointing to know that theres an entire group of players that think killing a low level character over and over is fun.
So the AoC dudes are removing the main draw to their game?
Funcom should balls-up and just tell them to re-roll on PvE servers.
I disagree. They’re making it so high level characters can’t go around griefing low level characters that can’t fight back. due to the level difference.
some people have been vocal about it, but from what i’ve read in the AoC forums most of them seem to be rather stupid or teenagers with severe social problems. Or both. When the new system comes on you can still gank people all you want…but I think the level range is that they have to be within 5 levels of you. I’m okay with that, since I think beating on a low level character that can’t possibly win is cowardly and stupid. And a lot of these guys have been griefing them by camping on the rez spot and killing them over and over. You know what happens if that continues? People stop playing. The only players left are cowardly gankers. What fun is that? I certainly wouldn’t stay. Funcom loses money as their “Mature MMO” becomes a laughable collection of semi-literate mouth breathers when the actual mature players leave.
so they’re putting in a penalty for being an asshat ingame. Its not going to stop PvP. Its not going to stop ganking. But it will probably keep new players longer than their first free month.
Personally, I think PVP is atrocious in any MMORPG without at least a little role play. It’s RPing that makes PVP worthwhile and fun in a universe of FFA PVP. PVP in an MMORPG, for most people, should be a necessarily social activity.
I’ve played pretty much every MMO out there at one point or another, and the only way to keep me interested in PVP servers was to have that social aspect. You really do need to find a guild on an FFA PVP server. They will help and protect you in ways that PVE guilds simply don’t bother themselves with. If it’s an RP server, then an RP guild is even better since they half don’t care about leveling up quickly anyway.
For AoC, you should start on the Bane server for PVP. It’s Cultural PVP, which means that your own race can’t attack you, and you can only attack members of the other two races. This presents balance issues, sure, but it’s a blast to not worry about getting ganked all the time by every character that passes. PLUS, most people of your own race will help you if they see you getting ganked. Or you can help out if you want.
Again, it’s the social aspect of PVP that makes it a fun, long-term type of content.
Huh? Is that the ruleset of the Bane server? because as far as I know ALL PvP is Free For All, that was the verdict a month or two ago ont eh official forums at elast and the verdict of numerous letters by the game director.
Keep in mind that Funcom has no idea how to actually manage a game.
At the last minute that introduced the “Cultural” ruleset. Bane went from full PvP to this modified style, which pissed off a lot of people who rolled on Bane expecting a normal PvP server.
Yes, what Palooka said. I think it’s a great idea, but it is crappy that they did it last minute after people had already created characters for the server. You’d think they’d give people a free server transfer if they were going to completely change a server’s ruleset.
Beware the law of unintended consequences. If higher-level characters can’t kill lower level characters, then griefers will turn the tables and find some way to use low-level characters to annoy higher-level characters. Griefers are endemic to any virtual world and the only answer to them is a sufficiently large Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool.
This is probably the implementation of the bounty system, it punishes players for EXCESSIVELY griefing players a lower level than them (it used to be 20+ but it may have been changed). Jail isn’t a “wait it out” thing either, you have to do menial tasks. And I don’t know if they’re doing this part, but you used to be able to pay off your monetary bounty (bribe the hunters) or run from the bounty hunters (all would be NPC), but I’m not sure how they’re implementing it.
Probably true. With the way Jason Stone claimed the system would work though, it might not be worth griefing. I’m paraphrasing but he described the jail system as kind of a gulag, where you have to do mundane tasks to get out, and that he wanted it so players…most likely the griefing victim…could watch you and probably talk smack about it. You can attack a lower level character but repeatedly killing them is when you draw the bounty hunters. I can’t recall really if he said anything about attacking a high level character with the intent on letting them kill you to get them in trouble, but I’d assume they’d set it up in a way that if you did that the high level toon would get a free pass on killing you. Well, thats what I would hope. We can only wait and see.
He also said you could avoid being jailed by evading the bounty hunters by moving to another zone. But if you return to the zone you were in they’ll still be after you. You can pay them off, also, but seeing how money seems hard to come by in game, that won’t be easy to swallow for a lot of people.
Crocodiles And Boulevards, I agree about the RP part. Thats one of the reasons I picked the Cimmerian server. A lot of people in the AoC forums (which is quickly becoming as nasty and stupid as the WoW forums IMO) say that *“Its a savage world! thats why I gank lowbies”, * but thats a flimsy excuse to constantly grief someone. (Conan himself never went around killing people just because he could) It was the same way in **City of Villains ** when it first launched. People would do all kinds of jacktard things and claim it was okay because they were rping a villain. Its sad that they don’t have reasoning skills enough to tell the difference between rping a character and purposely ruining someone elses play experience. I don’t think Funcom has a choice in doing something about it. If low level characters aren’t given a certain level of safety, and there is no penalty for being a turd burglar, new players will just do what the griefers say…“go back to WoW”.(or another game). Funcom loses customers and revenue, and probably get a bad reputation.
I do expect that much of the nonsense will die down once the free month is up, especially in the AoC forums. Sure most of the big mouths that say the game sucks will still be around. (As MMO’s go CoX is the only one with a forum that isn’t a bunch of people insulting each other.)
I am unaware of any changes to the bane server, but i’ll take your word for it, Palooka. That is kind of crappy. I’ve enjoyed the game so far, but it does seem like they didn’t finish clearing up some edges in it. I was really bored with WoW, and while I love playing City of Heroes/Villains, I needed a break from it. Currently the lvl 40 to 50 grind there was killing me since I’ve been working on 3 different characters in that range.
Ath (short for Athelan, Jason Stone’s pseudonym) said that if the lower level attacks the higher level it’ll probably “deflag” them so to speak from being tied to the bounty system, even then I think he said it takes a few consecutive kills for it to “kick in” anyway.
The mentality and motivations of MMO players are a topic of some interest to sociologists and other such types. Rather than add my own comments (which would merely be a repeat of others in this thread) I’ll refer you to the Daedalus project, where you will find a whole bunch of articles and food for thought.
Not much to add at this point, but as a counterpoint Palooka’s PvP stance let me say I 100% agree with you. I’ve simply stopped trying PvP servers in online games, since what I expected (similarly leveled characters in an interesting environment) seemed to be the exception to the rule. I cannot for the life of me see any redeeming point to ‘griefing’ people who are unable to pose a threat to you.
The ‘kicking puppies’ was an excellent way to describe it. Some people do, indeed, find fun in abusing those who are unable to resist.
Thanks. To illustrate what I said, I have a *Herald of Xolti * character thats still in Tortage. I joined a guild there, mostly for sh**s and giggles. Now anyone on a PVP server in AoC probably knows that *White Sands Isle * is *gank central. * There a lot of under level 20 quests there and higher level characters have been known to gank the unsuspecting in the zone. I was attacked by a ranger that was one level over me while I was fighting off crocodiles. Was I pissed off? No, not really. 1 level is not a great gulf. I could have taken him in a fair fight I’d wager. Its a PVP server so I got what was expected. Heck I tried to ambush him a few times after that, I just couldn’t get close enough without aggroing a billion NPC picts, tigers, panthers or crocks. . :mad: So yeah, that guy killed me a few times. Again, it was a technically fair fight and i enjoyed it. (Though I think Rangers are a bit cowardly since most of them stealth and attack at range…not that I wouldn’t do that if my class could. 
)
Later on I saw another character that was in the same guild as the ranger that had attacked me. He did pretty much the same thing. Waited until I was engaged in combat with NPCs then ran up and killed me when my health was low. Cowardly? Damn right. Sneaky? Sure, the little bastard! Fair? Well, it is an FFA PVP server and he was equal level with me, so yeah. Luckily another guild mate of mine arrived so we jumped him together. Now, that was fun…he tried to get away and ran right into me, with full health. We finished him off and he apparently never came back after rezzing.* I guess some guys can dish it out, but they can’t take it.* I went on about my business and returned to tortage, but I saw in guild chat how my guild and this other guild were now considered rivals. My guildmates were making it a point to escort or help out lower level characters that were trying to do quests on White Sands without being ganked. Sounds like fun to me, and as long as our rival guild keeps it in the spirit of gaming competition it should be. (the instance either guild starts bringing in characters that are too high a level for Tortage/White Sands, it gets stupid)
Both of those incidents are well within acceptable behaviour I think. Its when you attack someone thats so far below you in levels that they can’t possibly defeat you that you are "kicking puppies". I don’t undertsnad that mentality and to be honest, no puppy-kicker has ever come up with a good reason other than they enjoy being a jackass.
To clarify, I’m not against PvP…I’m only against unfair PvP griefers that like to kick puppies (players too low in level to actually stand a chance) and then usually rez- camp them until they quit. The only reason to do it is to be a shithead. Unfortunately though the game is rated mature, it seems some of the playerbase isn’t.
The part about PVP that I cannot understand is how PVPers can constantly misrepresent the position of people who do not PVP — and vice-versa.
On the SW:G and COH forums I often see the conversations go like this: “You carebears don’t PVP because you’re afraid! You don’t like to lose! You don’t like a challenge!”
And the non-PVPers respond, “You just like to be a jerk! PVPers are all bullies and potty mouths! You like to push people around!” and so forth.
There’s a tremendous amount of projection going on. I can’t really say “griefers attack people because they like to be jackasses” because that’s my interpretation of the behavior. Perhaps those people feel marginalized and powerless in real life, and their in-game behavior is a way to claim control of something, or a way to achieve social standing they cannot grasp in real life. Perhaps they’re simply bored with static enemies and they’re hoping to generate a larger conflict — PVP often leads to guild vs. guild or realm vs. realm, which creates a more interesting and dynamic game world.
I fully support the idea of in-game penalties for griefing: you must smash 10,000 rocks before you’re allowed to play with the big kids again. (Or whatever the punishment is.) Social exile is the way we should be trying to change behaviors: even children on a playground know that they can tell the weird kid who bites people during Freeze Tag they don’t want to play with him any more. A ban isn’t quite as effective, in my opinion.
I miss Planetside, I really do. No PvE content, the gameplay is entirely PvP. The way advancement is set up, you can do anything in the game right from the start; the only limiting factor is how much you can do at once, and higher levels allow you more versatility. But right from the start, you’re able to use the same weaponry that level 20 folks use, and it’s a twitch-based FPS. An hour-old character in skilled hands can hold its own against veterans. It’s about as level a playing field as you can get without being Battlefield.
I enjoy WOW PvP a little bit. It’s different to the games I’ve played in the past in that the PvP is mostly instanced. You enter a battleground and everyone is around about the same level. It’s fun but gets boring (IMO).
I played EVE Online but before that I played a much better game… Ultima Online. Before the non-pvp mirror realm was added (Trammel) I was a hopeless victim, but it was still fun. The resource gathering skills were more profitable because of the risk. I was mining in my boat one day around the mountains on Minoc, a pretty dangerous area, when I was attacked by a pirate. Thankfully he failed to trap my boat properly and I managed to escape with my large haul of ore. A great day. That load helped pay for my first house.
Then the non-pvp realm was introduced and people could mine in complete safety and the market was (relatively) flooded with high level resources. I could still boat mine in the pvp-realm (Felucca) but the ingots sold for less and the reward just wasn’t there. In Trammel people could farm all day with no risk. So I moved to Trammel and stayed there for a couple of years, forgetting about PvP completely. I quit more times than I remember, the game still managed to draw me back.
Then I got close to quitting for good, decided to give the PvP (no Trammel) server a try. To my surprise; instead of it being a PK heaven it was a server with a vibrant community. There were friendly guilds and role players all over the place. There were communities of people in their own player-built towns. There were all types of alliances and rules of engagement. The Orcs and the Undead would fight the human role players but only ever loot weapons and reagents (used for casting spells). It was the most fun I’ve had in UO. That kind of community ceased to exist on the shard with Trammel a long time ago. Yes, there were huge guilds on other shards, but numbers alone don’t make a community. Of course there were still groups of aggressive PvP’ers who would dry-loot those they kill, but you only had to put out a call and you would have 10, 15, 20 allies nearby within minutes. If you wanted to plan a large PvM operation then you needed to gather together either all your allies and plan a defence for the inevitable enemy assault. There were times (Harrower spawns) when practically the whole server would be fighting each other in one dungeon.
Sadly the PvP became more and more item based. Instead of combat relying on skill, both character and player, it began to depend on who could farm the best items. That in itself wasn’t a problem until they gave you the ability to ‘bless’ an item, making it unlootable when you died. Now a fight between two mages with the same skill template would rely on who had the best faster casting equipment. The pace of combat increased dramatically and attacks tended to be spammed. I’m ranting… I’ll get over it one day.
So my explanation of PvP… When unrestricted it forces people to group together and helps to build and maintain the community (same in EVE Online). When restricted, it encourages and allows more solo play, which is fine it that’s what you prefer. Personally I find I have more fun when I’m forced to PvP. I still remember my time in Ultima Online on the Siege Perilous Shard. In WoW I have 2 level 70’s and I’ve never once joined a guild.
I have to admit, the PvP made Ultima Online what it was. Yeah, there were griefers, but you had ways of defending yourself and playing it smart. Since it wasn’t a level-based system, people tended to be a little more evenly matched than in other games.
Once I was chopping wood in the forest around…Vesper, was it? The fishing town SE of Minoc. A guy came up to the edge of my screen and watched me work for a while, then jumped me. …Unfortunately, I was literally a foot away from the town border. Step, “GUARDS!” and he died instantly. You could taste the embarrassment in his voice when he asked me to let him have his equipment back. 
When you describe it this way, I can grasp why you feel PVP creates fun: you create social structures designed to protect the weaker members of the guild, you get to team with like-minded people, and allies get to fight with a purpose: avenging the death of some innocent at the hands of some criminally-minded killer. It adds drama and realism and it gives combat a use. It makes PVPers feel necessary and needed.
But to me, I can’t get away from the fact that in order to create this environment, somebody’s got to be the innocent who gets killed. Who wants to be that guy?
In such a place, the PVPers get what they want. The killers get to feel bold and daring. The protectors get to feel righteous and necessary. What does the victim get to feel?
I’ve heard PVPers say that battles get boring unless there’s some larger objective. Now I wonder if that missing objective is social rather than game-mechanical: they want their mad skillz to be recognized and desired by the community.
Star Wars: Galaxies tried to make combatants necessary, by making Doctors and Entertainers and Artisans so weak that they required bodyguards everywhere they went, lest the non-fighters be attacked and killed by a nest of lowly sycks or Banthas or Tusken Raiders. A doctor couldn’t go anywhere to mine his medical resources without protection or a healthy portion of luck.
They tried too hard to make fighters necessary to doctors and merchants, and merchants and doctors necessary to fighters, that they forgot to make it all fun. In my view. I don’t like needing to invite along a village just to pick berries on Dantooine.
In my experience, PvP brings out the worst in everyone. For the aggressors, it’s basically a license to be a jerk. For the victims, it’s basically being told that you pay your monthly subscription fee merely to provide entertainment for someone else.
The game that I worked on years ago originally had full PvP- and, what’s worse, when you died all of your items stayed on your corpse, and could be looted by the person who killed you. That combination nearly destroyed the game- one guild became incredibly powerful and completely tyrannized the server. It just kept getting worse- they’d kill someone weaker than them, get all of their stuff, sell it or ransom it back, and end up even better-equipped while their victims simply became weaker.
We ended up instituting all sorts of rules- we introduced lawfulness (and if you became a criminal you couldn’t even enter most towns without getting killed by the guards), we introduced partial looting (if you were a criminal, you dropped your backpack… but if you were lawful you didn’t drop anything)… We tried just about everything. Nothing really helped- the PvPers always found a loophole.
We even had a jail in the game- if you got busted by the guards, you’d get thrown into prison and would have to literally break rocks to work off your sentence. Even that didn’t help.
One thing I noticed was that if there was a bug which gave even the slightest advantage, it was almost invariably exploited by the PvPers. It makes sense- if you’re a PvPer, you try to do anything which gives you an advantage over your victims… and if that happens to include taking advantage of what are obviously bugs… well, just don’t tell anyone except your PvP partners.
Frankly, the easiest solution would be to simply get rid of PvP. From a developer’s standpoint, the risk/reward ratio sucks.