In a GQ thread someone asked “How do I find a good Karaoke place?”
I actually typed out:
You don’t usually find one, you have to make one.
1)Find an average Karaoke place.
2)Burn it to the ground.
3)tired opal reference.
Then I decided this was not appropriate for GQ so I didn’t post it. But seriously, Karaoke is my idea of hell. Not only am I expected to sing, which I do really badly, but in front of strangers with a microphone and stage lights…shudder!
Sulkers of all persuasions need to get themselves out of whatever situation they are in. No one wants to look at a sad face all evening.
But I think one thing extroverts sometimes do is misinterpret an introvert’s behavior as “sulking” when they are participating the way that suits them.
For instance, my family loves playing games. Especially charades-like games. I can do one round, but after awhile I just want to stop. (I’ve never been much into group games, even as a kid). So I’ll let someone else play and move to the outside of the group. I’m fine with just watching on the sidelines. I won’t whip out a book and go into a special snowflake cocoon. But when I say I don’t want to play anymore, I really really mean it. It doesn’t mean I’m tired or sad or whatever negative thing someone may attribute to me. It just means I’m done jumping up and down like a fool.
(I remembering being pressured to play games when I was young, by both other kids and my very playful, extroverted father. I never played well under those circumstances, which did nothing to cure me of the notion that playing games is a waste of time. I think the same can be said for anything, really. When people are pressured to do something they really don’t want to do, the experience usually reinforces why they didn’t want to do it in the first place. Though there are exceptions to this.)
Hardcore introvert checking in here.
I want to thank the extrovert poster who used the word “uncomfortable” instead of “annoying,” as silence cannot be annoying. It just can’t.
There are a couple of reasons that extros are uncomfortable with intros–first being a touch (or more than a touch) of paranoia. I cannot tell you how many times people have confronted me about the fact that I’m so intense and they think I’m gonna blow any second. The reality of the situation is that I rarely get angry, and if I am upset, that’s when I get verbal. I can only surmise that they have had people in their lives that got quiet before they started raging. And while I’m sorry that happened to them, it’s just as upsetting to me to have people give me a wide berth when I am, in fact, happy as a pig in shit.
I’ve also been confronted about giving people the silent treatment. Again, not so. I just find it hard to keep up mindless chit chat. It wears me out. Nothing personal whatsoever, until, that is, the paranoia sets in and people start making trouble for me just because I am quiet.
And the final reason for the uncomfortableness? It’s because extros are looking for stimulation–for a dopamine fix. According to research started in the early 2000’s, intros are full up on dopamine. We don’t need any, so when we are stimulated by human contact, our dopamine receptors can’t take any more, so the stress hormones start flowing. We really do need to get away and let the hormonal cascade fade away and normalize. We’re not making it up. Extros on the other hand are looking for a fix. They’re jonesing. “Dope” fitting if you will. And any human will do–doesn’t seem to matter if they want to provide the fix at all. I was recently watching my 18 month old niece playing with a toy that had lots of moving parts and doors to open. She started trying to open parts of the toy that were sealed shut and got increasingly frustrated. And that’s what I feel like when a needy extrovert (because it’s not all of them, thank Gord) wants to take me to the mall, or to a bar, or to a party, (all for my own good of course) or just plain won’t shut up. I feel like I have a frustrated toddler hammering at me to do something I just can’t do.
Also of interest to those who really, truly want to understand introversion–language seems to be processed via different longer, more complicated neural pathways, thus our thoughts take longer to verbalize. We’re not broken, we’re wired differently.
I know people will ask me to cite–I would but I have stuff to do–just wanted to get this posted while the thread was still active. Many introvert blogs talk about the science, for those who want to dig deeper.
I considered myself introvert with problems of shyness, so I have no idea which of my behaviour is due to which. I have no problems running my mouth off in company of close friends, making jokes, shooting the air and so on, but add a stranger to the group and I will shut up.
I value personal space and have a “mind your own business mindset”. Why isn’t an introvert talking? Many reasons. It could be I don’t know you well enough yet and for some reasons I don’t feel like talking about my life to you. I gotten better at making small talk over the time, but!
The second reason why introverts won’t talk is that usually introverts and extroverts have different interests. I am interested in technology and how it works, and why it works and its impact. Extroverts I know tend to talk about technology in terms of how cool it looks, what have they gotten out of it and etc. Of course, I am applying a broad brush here.
For me, I am always constantly evaluating what I am saying, especially to strangers. Are we close enough to talk about this? Is this fellow even going to be interested? Why would I want to let him know this fact? Am I coming across as too biased or open? What does the person really think and wants?
An example - I switched cell groups at church and while talking with people from the new cell group, one asked me “so how are we different from your previous bunch?” and after a while I asked, “Define 'different”. I went on to explain - what differences do you want to hear? The way they relate to another, or their background, or what they do for their activities and etc?
I discover that at least for me, extroverts are okay with being general and non-specific, while I take a longer time to evaluate my responses. Recently, though I have learn to give some verbal cues, such as “Give me a moment to process that” and so on.
The next thing about introverts not talking; well, are you ready to listen to an introvert when he or she talks? To us talking is as good as thinking, so it’s either you wait till we get back to you to and just let you know the conclusion, or you listen to our “thinking aloud” which involves lots and lots of details. And the last thing I want to hear, when I talk, is “You are thinking way too much! Take it easy!” or some such.
Oh I have met extroverts with bad social cues who just keep on talking and talking and cut into other people’s conservations and just sprout nonsense at the drop of the coin, starting new threads of conversations without any context. Not everyone with good people skill = extroverts.
This is one of the most important skills I’ve picked up - the ability to let others know what’s going on with me. My old mentor calls it ‘‘managing expectations.’’ If you’re not talking, or seem remote, people are going to draw their own conclusions - unless you explicitly tell them what’s happening in the old noggin’.
So at a meeting, it’s ‘‘You’ve given me a lot to think about. I’m going to need some time to process this and get back to you at XYZ time.’’
At a gathering, it’s, ‘‘I need to step out for a moment and get some fresh air.’’
When you’re invited to a big party, it’s ‘‘I’m pretty introverted and prefer smaller groups, so I’m going to pass, but I would absolutely love to spend one on one time with you later.’’
I am amazed at how understanding people have been since I’ve started doing this. I feel much more authentic in my relationships. Like it or not, we live in an extroverted society. I love being an introvert and I’m not going to change who I am, but in order to form good relationships, we have to learn to be honest.
This is the thing. We extraverts aren’t necessarily mean, it’s just that we don’t understand unless someone tells us explicitly. Mainly because we prefer the sound of our own voices. 
My brother’s an introvert and he needs an hour or two alone, decompressing from the day. It used to drive me nuts when I stayed with him, and I would bang on his door and hassle the poor guy to come out and chat. I never got why this was necessary for him until I studied the extravert/introvert thing.
I think you’re right. IIRC Myers-Briggs observes that the business world favors ESTJs. I am an ENTP. While I’ve got the extraversion and thinking thing down pat, the NP part is a huge problem for me.
(Also qv. the listeners/solvers thread which is actually discussing the T/F Myers-Briggs dichotomy, though nobody’s explicitly stated it yet.)
I participated on a conference call the other day. The leader had distributed materials for everyone on the call to review. After glancing at one of the “checklists” for a few seconds, I thought everything was fine. But as she kept talking, I tuned her out for a second and focused on the checklist more intensely. I found a big problem with it. And I had to let it be known right then and there, because I needed the other callers on the phone to be on-board with me before the leader went forward.
I unmuted my phone and started out painfully. I am a cognizant clutterer (most clutterers aren’t). Which means that I will often backtrack in mid-sentence, insert unnecessary parentheticals, mispronounce words, trip over phrases, etc. And I stutter and have a trembly voice that sometimes sounds like I’m crying (or so I have been told). Add in the introversion factor, and spontaneous communication is often very awkward for me. I can do well with funny quips and one-liners–they come out really easy for some reason. But anything that actually requires thinking requires, well, thinking.
Anyway, I’m trying to communicate to all these faceless strangers why I think there’s a problem with one of the tasks on the spreadsheet. All the while I know I sound idiotic, but I know I have to keep going. When I’m done, I make sure to acknowledge to the group that I know I had a hard time articulating my thoughts–I am aware that none of what I had said made any sense! My cheeks burned a little and I thought to myself, “Why am I even trying to be somebody of importance? I should be working down in the mail room!” But to my relief, people actually chimed in to say they agreed with the point I was raising. They were able to translate my comment for those who didn’t understand, and I felt like I had accomplished something.
So I agree with olives about being upfront and honest. If you can make people laugh about your communication style, they will work with you.
I think empathty is important. Introverted people who think going clubbing is stupid and pointless seem to believe the world should exist based on their logic. But introverted people who dont like clubbing, but understand why others may like it come off as more understandable themselves.
Behavior also has to be balanced by social norms. An extrovert talking over a movie or in an airplane is going to be annoying and rude as hell because they arent showing consideration for others. Similarly, an introvert sitting in a corner reading a book at a reunion/group activity/etc may come off as rude or dismissive of others. Our social energy has to be balanced by our environment.
I can be both introverted and extroverted. When I’m excited/happy/awake I tend to talk too much/too loud. But when i’m bored/tired/irritable, I look bored/play with my phone. I’ve since learned to rein myself in when I’m excited, and try hard to engage others when i’m bored.
I’ve always been introverted, but I used to love to go clubbing. Never had much luck in attracting much attention, being so quiet and all. I MADE myself go out and do stuff, and learn to talk to people. Otherwise I’d still be living with my parents, reading and listening to music in my childhood bedroom.
I’m curious as to what drives people’s preferences towards introversion or extroversion. Is it a learned trait? Like for example if you grow up around people you find tedious or stupid, do you tend to become more introverted because you associate being around people as annoying and boring? Or the flip side of that, do people who have always received a positive reponse from other people tend to like being around them?
Or is it independent? So like an introvert who is very popular would feel frustrated by having to be ‘on’ all the time or an extrovert who is socially oastracised would feel extremely depressed?
In a situation like that I take part in the conversation, although I may be more silent than most (specially in a group of Southern-style-speakers) because I avoid talking over/interrupting other people. But if I’m in a concert with a small group of friends, plus the little kids of several of them, and I stay at the back with the kids while they go to dance ska (which to me looks like the kind of pushing each other around that would have gotten us a time out when I was in preschool, plus I bruise easily)…
why is it what when they come back, the first words out of their mouth are “I’m sorry you’re bored”? I’m having fun with the kids! They have the most interesting conversations, and when they’re tired it’s their parents who need to wrestle them into pajamas and in bed…
I know you get it. But there seems to be one or two who don’t in every group 
and they keep insisting in saying “I’m sorry you’re not having fun” after I’ve already said “but I am! I just happen to enjoy spending time with the kids and people watching more than I enjoy getting bruised!” and everybody else has understood it. Do they think I’m lying out of a mistaken sense of politeness? Why do they keep saying “I’m sorry you’re bored” instead of “it’s nice we got someone who’s happy to babysit!”?
I think it’s mostly in-borne, but with some environmental influence.
My twin and I are both introverted and have always been, though not to the same extent. We aren’t identical, so we weren’t destined to be the same anyway, but I do think experiences early in our lives shaped us. I was the runt between us and had a few physical challenges that she didn’t have. That had to have shaped how people treated us growing up and how we related to our environments. How exactly, I’m not sure.
If you look at pictures of us when we were toddlers–when we really looked very similar–you can always tell who is who just based on the way we are smiling. It took me a long time to learn how to smile on cue–around the time when I started high school. Before then, I would do a strange grimace thing or do a delayed grin that never looked right on camera. Meanwhile, my twin could always turn out a homerun. The quientessential “cute kid” pictures belong to her. The goofy WTH! pictures belong to me.
Growing up, we had friends. But most of our friends were actually HER friends. She’d play with them on the playground on a regular basis; sometimes I would join in on the fun and sometimes I would not. If our classes didn’t share recess together, I would play alone. If our classes shared recess together, I was more likely to play with others. See, I wouldn’t want my sister to see that I actually preferred being a loner. I don’t know what the other kids thought about my multiple personalities.
It is interesting when I think about it. She always had stories of classroom drama to tell when we’d get home from school, and I remember thinking that her classes were always a lot more exciting and fun than mine were. When really, it’s just that she noticed stuff that I didn’t notice, and she cared more about “external” things than I did.
If I hadn’t been raised with a twin sister, I probably would be even more introverted than I am now. I have a great sense of humor, I think, because 1) I inherited it from my father and 2)I felt competitive pressure to be something. My sister’s personality was fulfilled through academic prowess, assertiveness, physical confidence–none of which I really “owned” like she did. So I expressed myself through creativity, eccentricity, and wit, none of which required me to be particularly extroverted.
Regarding the mutability thing, I don’t think of myself as being unlikable. I have had negative experiences around people, but certainly more positive ones, on average. I get along with just about everyone as long as they don’t thrive on drama or hysterics (or try to get their clutches on me). So I am not sure why I am becoming more and more introverted…except to think that it stems from a diminishing pleasure principal. My opinion of people hasn’t changed, I don’t think. It’s just that I often don’t feel the reward that generally comes with social interactions. It just doesn’t seem worth the trouble half the time.
Coupla major flaws there. 1) IMO It’s not a “preference” toward introversion or extroversion. You don’t sit there and think, I want to become a quiet loner/I yearn to be the loudmouth of all time. You are the way you are, just as if you know you are gay. IMO. 2) How the bloody blazes would a kid growing up around “tedious and stupid people” KNOW their families are tedious and stupid? They’re KIDS, they don’t know how to judge or compare for many years, and they don’t all of a sudden at age 8 go, ‘duh, my mom is a kitchen drudge and my father mops floors. These dullards are annoying and boring to my superior, sensitive personality, so I will just go read books by myself to get away from them.’ Those are their parents, tedious and stupid as YOU might see them - but how does the kid growing up in their care know?
I think you’re being unnecessarily harsh on msmith.
Instead of pointing out the flaws–which I think are easily overlooked, if you aren’t looking to be a nitpicker–why not try to answer his questions? They are interesting. Ones that I have wondered about myself.
As far as kids not knowing that their parents are tedious or stupid, you are right that this feeling doesn’t develop until a person is older and more exposed. But it doesn’t mean that tedious and stupid parents don’t shape a child’s preferences and tendencies. I can look back at my parents’ personalities and hypothesize how they influenced mine. My father’s temper, for instance, didn’t exactly encourage me to be very expressive when in his presence, and for a long time I was intimidated by male authority figures because I was always afraid they were going to whale on me. Of course I wouldn’t have been able to express this as a kid, because I wouldn’t have had the right vantage point. But that doesn’t mean the question cannot be considered retrospectively.
There isn’t any evidence showing that personality is immutable and that introversion or extroversion are stable properties. So jumping down msmith’s throat for his word choice is kind of ballsy on your part. IMHO.
After typing and sending, I did realize I came across as harsh, and I regret that.
Maybe there’s no answer as to why we are the way we are, and what influence the family has on us. Some, maybe. A silent, morose, threatening parent can certainly tamp down an exuberant mischievous child - but for the rest of his or her life? (Conversely, somewhere in Vegas, I’ll bet there’s a family of circus performers insisting their quiet bookworm of a kid just try on a sequined leotard, for crying out loud, and practice a few backflips!)
I think it’s inborn, something to do with our brain wiring, our nervous systems. Like being born left-handed, you can be forced to use your right hand, but should you?
I fall on the mildly introverted section of the scale, and a big part of both my jobs involves public speaking. At one job I host online web-seminars, prepping speakers beforehand, then making sure that things go smoothly during their presentations, having to interrupt with up to 200 people listening when they don’t. My other job involves training groups of people, which can be interactive or lecture format, the latter meaning I’m the only one speaking for 1-3 hours*. I’m comfortable doing these things.
Now.
But it took me a lot of effort to get to this point considering that I was the kid who rehearsed **everything **she wanted to say before daring to speak up in high school and college classes. When I first trained people, I felt like throwing up before every training. That lasted six months, and then I got over it. It’s easy to tell people “oh, public speaking is not a big deal to me” and it’s now true but I have had over seven years of practice being the center of attention… I think most introverts can get over the fear of public speaking but it is hard and it is a big deal.
1a) According to the Myers Briggs Type Indicator definition, it is very much a natural “preference” along each dichotomy (E/I, S/N, T/F, J/P). That is to say you don’t “think about it”, you are just naturally inclined towards one or the other.
1b) Yes, sort of like being gay. You don’t “decide” to be gay. You just “prefer” the same sex.
1c) They aren’t “flaws” because I was asking a question, not submitting a thesis.
You know pretty early on if you seem to pick up things quicker (or slower) than other people and if people are rewarding or punishing you for it. Little kids may not be able to articulate it, but they know when someone is being mean or nice to them.
Emergent properties arise whenever you have complex factors interacting. The thing about emergent properties is that they often are unpredictable. That is why even identical twins have totally different personalities. The moment the zygote splits, their environments become totally different. Different genes are switched on and off. The two individuals quickly have divergent outlooks on the world, even before they take their first breath of air.
That exuberant mischievous child could be tamped down throughout childhood, but upon reaching adolescence, they decide to do a complete 180 and freak everyone the fuck out. They turn out to be even more “out there” than if their parents had just let them be. Or they reach adolescence and become extremely depressed and anxious in their alienation. They cope using maladaptive mechanisms, which causes further social isolation and a distorted view of themselves and the world. The consequences of their behavior continue to shape who they are. They may go to jail, find Jesus, and turn out to be a charismatic preacher with a family of four and a white picket fence. Or they may get hooked on drugs, become a drifter, and commit suicide. You cannot predict how this individual is going to unfold just by studying their early personality. There is a reason why personality disorders aren’t diagnosed until adulthood.
I think personality is much more complex than handedness is. I don’t know if personality arises because of hardware, software, a combination of both, or something else entirely. But I do know that laterality is hardwired. Whether it should be changed is a different issue.
(A lot of problems are “hardwired” neurologically. That doesn’t mean they aren’t problems and that they shouldn’t be corrected.)
There is quite a bit of genetic or innate evidence for someone’s version of -version. There is also a theory (I think Hans Eysenck popularized it), mostly borne out, that says the opposite of everyone’s first impression. Namely that introverts actually have a high cortical arousal, and so want to minimize overactivity by staying away from frequent stimulation. Extr(a)(o)verts have low levels, and need stimulation to get to “normal.”
I am an introvert, but I have no problem meeting and interacting with people.
I have never been a sports fan-I just don’t get excited by sports.
I look at people getting really excited at the Superbowl, and wonder why I never had the same level of interest.