Family booted from Southwest flight

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Disabilities or not, what kept the two adults from blocking them from the aisle?
[/QUOTE]

For shit’s sake, an airplane is the one place where you can not only block your child in, but strap him or her to their freakin’ seat, to prevent them from running amok (and dole out a stinging slap to the hand each time they think about reaching for the belt release). Short of the aforementioned kiddie carrier, I don’t see how the environment could be better suited to restrain the lovable li’l tykes.

42

[QUOTE=squeegee]
However:
This is true, but incomplete. A parent can tell their kid to be quiet. The kid can then ignore them and scream their head off. What can the parent then do – gag the kid? Beat the crap out of them until they’re intimated and/or unconscious? Kids are going to scream, and sometimes there’s nothing anyone can (reasonably, see above) do about it, even the parents.
[/QUOTE]

A little judiciously applied pain can be a very educational experience. I know when I was growing up that if I ever even thought about pitching a screaming fit, it result in intense stinging pain to my posterior. Immediately. Those kids should never have been on the plane in the first place if their parents couldn’t control tham. Hard to check for, I know. But children need to know very early what lines they can’t cross at all. Most of us knew, didn’t we?

43

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
For shit’s sake, an airplane is the one place where you can not only block your child in, but strap him or her to their freakin’ seat, to prevent them from running amok (and dole out a stinging slap to the hand each time they think about reaching for the belt release). Short of the aforementioned kiddie carrier, I don’t see how the environment could be better suited to restrain the lovable li’l tykes.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly, I see no excuse for what these irresponsible adults did. (or didn’t do)

44

[QUOTE=silenus]
A little judiciously applied pain can be a very educational experience. I know when I was growing up that if I ever even thought about pitching a screaming fit, it result in intense stinging pain to my posterior. Immediately. Those kids should never have been on the plane in the first place if their parents couldn’t control tham. Hard to check for, I know. But children need to know very early what lines they can’t cross at all. Most of us knew, didn’t we?
[/QUOTE]
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Hitting a 2-year-old who’s screaming likely won’t quiet it. So, you’re the parent. The plane is at 35,000 feet. What do you do now, silenus, now that your plan A (the ritual smacking of the butt) has failed?

45

Upon further reflection, I have three more things to say:

  1. Getting stranded in an airport overnight is not the worst thing in the world. Granted, I’ve never done it with kids, but still. You buy a book or a couple magazines, plop yourself down, try to get some sleep, and write an angry letter to the airline when you finally get where you’re going. It’s not like they were stranded in Basra. If you have the money to spend you go down to the baggage claim level and find a hotel, which almost certainly will come and pick you up. If not, well - again, it’s not like you’re somewhere that you’re not allowed to loiter.
  2. How is it the airline’s fault that you were stranded “with no money”? To begin with, I’m deeply skeptical that someone is traveling by air yet doesn’t have at least a debit card, if not a credit card as well. But okay, if they don’t, then…they’re not carrying cash? Really? You’re not just flying, but taking a long flight, with kids, and you’re carrying five bucks in your purse? Really? That just seems kind of…well, I’ll be generous and say hopeful, in that you’re assuming you won’t, say, get delayed somewhere.
  3. When I was a young child, my older sister and parents and I flew at least twice a year from Philadelphia to Florida. Other than one flight when I was an infant and cried the entire way*, my parents have said that my sister and I were always pretty much fine. Why? Because we knew that we would be in Big Trouble if we didn’t follow instructions, sit and read or play quietly, and generally act civilized. I (grudgingly) admit that you can’t necessarily keep a toddler or infant from screaming, but you sure can once they’re older than that, and you should at least be able to keep the child in their seat regardless of age.

The whole thing screams to me of “The customer is always right!” bullcrap. Someone didn’t follow the rules, there were repercussions, and now they’re crying to the media about how they were unfairly treated.

*Sorry. And apparently I - completely paradoxically - stopped as we descended. My dad had me wrapped in a blanket, and the flight attendant practically begged him to just take the blanket, don’t disturb the sleeping baby. We’ve still got that blanket.

46

This story (like most similar stories) makes me long for an interview with a fellow passenger. I’d love to hear an objective report (not from the parents or the flight attendants) on exactly how the kids were behaving on the flight.

Anyway, the video showed one of the younger kids (Gracie, they said) and said she was the one with CP. The child shown definately did not have severe CP. Mild, perhaps, or mild-to-moderate. My daughter’s diagnosis is moderate-to-severe and she is much more obviously disabled than the child in the video. And, whatever else that particular kid may have been doing on the plane she wouldn’t have been running around if she had severe CP. That’s the one real good thing about having a kid with a serious orthopedic disablity – they tend to stay where you put them.

47

Do have a look at the CNN video. The CP affected child must be a very mild case, as Jess said. Seriously.

As for the autistic boy, well, I always take that with a grain of salt when it comes to media reports. Nowadays, when it comes to unruly kids in the news, they’re always miraculously “autistic”, for the sake of the event in question. It’s quite baffling, if you ask me.

I’m just saying.

Even the mother said the kids were basically running wild.

48

[QUOTE=squeegee]
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Hitting a 2-year-old who’s screaming likely won’t quiet it. So, you’re the parent. The plane is at 35,000 feet. What do you do now, silenus, now that your plan A (the ritual smacking of the butt) has failed?
[/QUOTE]

You shouldn’t need to hit your child because you have already taught him or her how to behave (age appropriate) in public. This means that EVERY DAY, EVERY MOMENT you spend with that child you are disciplining them. Not punishing, disciplining. As in the difference between inside and outside voices; saying please and thank you; waiting your turn (even 2 year olds can wait their turn. Yes, they can); safety in the car is a NON-issue, because newborn, infant, toddler, preschooler and child have been strapped into seats in moving vehicles since birth. Discipline starts with respect and attention for the child; it cannot be doled out haphazardly or willy-nilly which these parents found out. Cry me a river.

I’ve flown with my 3 kids any number of times. The ONLY time we were disruptive was when the baby had an undiagnosed ear infection and the pressure change made him miserable. My kids don’t misbehave in public, but then I pay attention to them in public. You have to incorporate them into your shopping/travel/errands-they are not dead weight; they are small people who have no choice but to go with you. None of that applies to these hellions who appear to be older than infants/toddlers.

My SIL does not bother to strap in her 3 kids–all under the age of 6. “They just unbuckle themselves” she whines. Well, what IS a mother to do? How about being the effing MOTHER and laying down the law? How about pulling over (because NOTHING, not even the take out dinner you just picked up or the dance recital you’ll be late to or whatever is more important than safety in the car/plane/boat at that moment. If you, the parent, have behave differently, you have taught that child to make this a button pushing issue or a game. ).

I don’t care about the disabilities-they are irrelevant. (and so much for “we want to be treated like everyone else, except when we want to lean on our handicap for sympathy”). :rolleyes: (and how a kid with CP runs anywhere is beyond me)

49

Airplanes have booze. Get the brats falling-down drunk.

I can’t think of everything, people.

50

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
(and how a kid with CP runs anywhere is beyond me)
[/QUOTE]

Clackety clackety clackety clackety…

51

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
You shouldn’t need to hit your child because you have already taught him or her how to behave (age appropriate) in public. This means that EVERY DAY, EVERY MOMENT you spend with that child you are disciplining them. Not punishing, disciplining. As in the difference between inside and outside voices; saying please and thank you; waiting your turn (even 2 year olds can wait their turn. Yes, they can); safety in the car is a NON-issue, because newborn, infant, toddler, preschooler and child have been strapped into seats in moving vehicles since birth. Discipline starts with respect and attention for the child; it cannot be doled out haphazardly or willy-nilly which these parents found out. Cry me a river.
[/QUOTE]

Hand waving. 2 year olds (twenty four months) melt down, period. They do. All the discipline in the world cannot hand wave this away. You either know this, or you haven’t raised children. Or your children were angels, some people get lucky. I’ve pulled my car over on the road when my kid wouldn’t behave. Left the store. Taken the kid out of the restaurant, right when my food arrives. Instilled age-appropriate punishments, over and over yadayadayada. But it does happen.

So, you’re the parent. The plane is at 35,000 feet. Your 24-month-old is melting down. Loudly. (And yes, not running around the plane; different matter.) What do you do now, eleanorigby, now that your plan A (virtuous, formidable, unbending parenting heroism, scornfully attested) has failed?

52

And again, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread imply that anyone should be kicked off of an airplane because of a *screaming * child.

53

In an act of charity (and who is more deserving of charity than those poor children who are orphaned while their parents yet live?) Southwest has refunded them for their entire trip.

54

Having flown more than my fair share of SWA, I’ll hazard a guess that the reason that the airline didn’t immediately help them reschedule is because the parents went ballistic when they got kicked off, and threw a shit-fit about it.

Generally speaking, if you’re nice to them, the SWA people will do just about everything in their power to help you out, but if you’re an ass, they have no problem telling you where you can stick it.

55

[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
Clackety clackety clackety clackety…
[/QUOTE]

Oh, we are so going to hell. I laughed, Dopers, I laughed out loud.

<hangs head in shame… giggling>

56

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
My SIL does not bother to strap in her 3 kids–all under the age of 6. “They just unbuckle themselves” she whines. Well, what IS a mother to do?
[/QUOTE]

Back when I had children that age, they’d been buckled in since birth (one way or another). So by the time they were 6, they were uncomfortable driving without a seatbelt. A lot of this is a matter of the parents’ attitudes being instilled in the children without overt discipline – another example is my daughter, aged about 4, on my shoulders in a street march, and telling me that we shouldn’t be walking on the road. (I told her that there were special circumtances that let us do it ).

57

[QUOTE=squeegee]
Hand waving. 2 year olds (twenty four months) melt down, period. They do. All the discipline in the world cannot hand wave this away. You either know this, or you haven’t raised children. Or your children were angels, some people get lucky. I’ve pulled my car over on the road when my kid wouldn’t behave. Left the store. Taken the kid out of the restaurant, right when my food arrives. Instilled age-appropriate punishments, over and over yadayadayada. But it does happen.

So, you’re the parent. The plane is at 35,000 feet. Your 24-month-old is melting down. Loudly. (And yes, not running around the plane; different matter.) What do you do now, eleanorigby, now that your plan A (virtuous, formidable, unbending parenting heroism, scornfully attested) has failed?
[/QUOTE]

Bullshit. I didn’t raise angels–I raised 3 kids. You are the voice of authority. You are the parent. As Miss Manners says, on a plane/train/bus you don’t have the luxury of letting a child cry it out. You figure out what the problem is and fix it. One good way of doing so is to cut this kind of shit off at the pass. IOW, you give clear expectations to the child. 2 year olds can understand simple expectations. If that has failed, you don’t waste time bitching about having to put up with all of this or giving the other passengers dirty looks, you find a solution to the problem in front of you (you can always abuse the other passengers in the rental car later). :slight_smile:

If you have to remove said child to the lavatory to do a menacing parent thing or just to get the noise muffled for a bit, you do it. These kids were not having a meltdown, they were running amok.

My mother had the Grip and the Look of Death perfected and I have used it on my own kids upon occasion. Thing is, if you haven’t taught the child appropriate behavior from the get go, no formidable look/upper arm squeeze will be enough to penetrate Demon Imp child. You reap what you sow as a parent-they know what they can get away with. Letting kids get away with murder is never a good idea. They need limits. They want limits and will go to extremes to show you that. Temper tantrums are not impressive to me. I am not intimidated by them and will not be cowed by an out of control child. Tantrums can scare your child, though–a child doing this needs you to help them off that toddler ledge. What you do varies with the child and the skill of the parent.

Most kids (I’d say 99.9%) respond to respectful, courteous treatment–that whole love and trust thing. You are not their friend; you are their parent. The kid may be getting sick–figure it out, fix it and if you cannot fix it (like I couldn’t with #2 son’s ears), you apologize to people and keep trying. His cries were less when rocked [bottle didn’t work and he was too young to chew gum], so by God, I rocked him until my arms were about to fall off. I owed it to my fellow passengers as a parent to do so. Really, I expect nothing less from other parents which is no doubt why I am frequently appalled when out in public.

Maybe s/he’s scared of something. Or just tired. It’s a rare child who will not respond to comfort and attention. Nope-you can’t just plunk them down in front of the TV this time–you have to be there for them and feel what they’re feeling. It’s hard. It’s embarrassing. None of that matters.

Nice snark re the parenting skills, too, btw. I did what I thought was right for my kids and it seems to have paid off. Can you look back and say the same? I’ve had conductors of orchestras come and compliment me on my children’s behavior after the performances. I’m good at this. To get good, I read a lot, listened a lot, observed/babysat even more. IOW, I prepared for my role as a parent, knowing it would be the most challenging job of my life. I’ve loved it (well, most of it!). How about you?

Again, you are the parent. You are responsible for this child and his or her behavior at this age–how do you want to play it? You’re in charge, not the kid. Meltdowns do indeed just happen, just like shit and we are all usually prepared for shit.
[Scarlett O’Hara]If I have to lie, cheat, steal or kill, I swear, as God as my witness, you will behave yourself on this plane![/SO’H]

SWA did what it could to send these parents a message that they have been ineffectual parents to their special needs kids up to now. I pity the teachers of these kids and anyone who has to babysit them.

yes, Giles, absolutely. When did 2 year olds become more strongwilled than the adults they trust to keep them safe? It baffles me.

58

[QUOTE=DianaG]
And again, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread imply that anyone should be kicked off of an airplane because of a *screaming * child.
[/QUOTE]

Right here. I don’t think they should land the plane for it either :slight_smile:

59

Sorry. I’m a child of another generation, not a precious snowflake. When you started shit in a public place, Mom or Dad gave you a look which said, “knock it off or I’ll knock you into next week.” I learned very quickly.

60

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
As Miss Manners says, on a plane/train/bus you don’t have the luxury of letting a child cry it out. You figure out what the problem is and fix it.
[/quote]
My point is that that doesn’t always work, and on a plane, you have few options.

Sorry, turbulance. Seatbelt sign is lit. You must deal with this from your seat. But thank you, its a good point – that is a realistic thing that can be done, and I’ve done it myself.

I don’t dispute it. Please read my posts, which started with Johnny LA’s comment about telling a kid to be quiet, and I responded that this doesn’t always work. And silenus advised a good smack, which also doesn’t work.

Right. I had to do basically that for about 60 minutes when my son (around 2, maybe a little less) went off the deep end on a plane once. I and my wife really did try everything we could think of, and nothing worked. And the seatbelt sign was lit and there really was turbulence, so I mostly couldn’t take him out of his seat (a child seat he was buckled into, which was then buckled into the airline seat, by the way). And I apologized profusely to those around us.

Yup, and I did nothing less, and it didn’t help, and we were mortified (and as you say, that doesn’t matter). And every person who walked by gave the The Look, except perhaps the people behind us who knew we were trying our best, and the flight attendants, who were sympathetic and asked what they could do to help.

Just snarking in kind, ma’am. Why do you (IMO, and I mean no offense) seem to assume most parents whose kids melt down don’t have your parenting skills or dedication? I’d bet many do, and are trying their level best. How about we cut them some slack?