Does the way you knot your tie really indicate social class, as Paul Fussell asserts in his book Class? He claims that the higher your social standing, the more likely you are to use a half-Windsor knot. For those who don’t know, that’s the method that results in a thinner knot that’s usually a little askew under the collar.
The full Windsor gives a somewhat heart-shaped knot that is more nearly symmetrical. This knot, says Fussell, is a favorite of high school boys and others eager to impress. And eagerness to impress is a dead giveaway of class anxiety.
So what do you think? Fussell seems to be dead on about a lot of things, but his book has a strong Northeastern U.S. bias. Yet I do notice that prominent leaders do seem to favor the half-Windsor. Or is that only because hardly anyone at all uses a full-Windsor anymore?
I tie a half-Windsor because I think a full Windsor makes it look like a silk rodent is attacking my throat. And I have no class.
I’ve always thought that a full Windsor was simply preferred in Europe while a half-Windsor is preferred in the States. I don’t see many people wearing full Windsors in the US.
I’m with Zoff…I always tie a half-Windsor, and I have no class either.
But now Coldfire has me wondering…are the haberdasheries of Amsterdam so much finer than those of New York that a Dutch necktie can be tied in full-Windsor without the wearer looking like a goofball?
I challenge him to post a photo of himself in full double-Windsor regalia.
I tie a full Windsor because I like symmetry (and that’s the way I was shown as a young boy). However, I find that many ties are too short for the tail to be tucked inside the label on a full Windsor, while it can with the half. That’s my preferred way of dealing with the tail, instead of tucking it into the shirt. YMMV.
I’ll put Paul Fussell in the same category as the Rules writers. He feels he has something important to say and someone’s willing to give him a forum. He doesn’t and they shouldn’t have.
I tie a half windsor with two dimples, looks sharp, but it is the only way I know how to tie them. In contrast to the other halfies that have replied I have tons of class. All of it low.
Coldfire, Los Angeles, right. I’m probably the only person in town not working at a law office, or in a bank, or on a job interview, who’s wearing a tie. I don’t know why, I just felt like wearing one today, which prompted me to post.
I’ve always favored the DW myself because it seems to stay tied better. HW’s always seem to want to come undone.
D_Odds, I see you’re from the NW US, as is Fussell, who I think teaches at Yale. I don’t think he’s quite in the same category as the Rules writers. For one thing, his object isn’t to tell you how you should dress or behave, but just to offer a sociological analysis. While not intentionally meant to be tongue in cheek, the book seems to be inherently funny, and all class levels are dissected–and lambasted–from top to bottom. Still, like I said, there’s a lot there that seems dead wrong for California. For example, he asserts that the very richest people tend to drive beat-up old clunkers, since they have no need to impress others. But that’s definitely not true 'round these parts.
As a newspaper editor I tie a double windsor and then unbutton my collar and loosen the necktie so much that it dangles just barely tied. It looks more newspaper editorish somehow. Yes, I also have rolled up sleaves and an unbuttoned vest. When our readers and advertisers come in they expect to see an editor that looks like their notion of an editor.
Full Windsor knots also require a spread collar to look “right.” With a point collar or and oxford collar there’s too much clutter up under your chin.
Does anyone remember the Warner Bros. cartoon where Daffy Duck sells Porky Pig the “House of the Future” that has the necktie tying machine? “It ties the Windsork, Schmindsor, Half-Windsor, and Four-in-Hand.” The machine then proceeds to choke Porky who, after extricating himself from the contraption, asks what knot was just tied. “That,” says Daffy, “was the Alcatraz Ascot.”
I used to wear a tie when I was waitressing, and I tied the full Windsor, because my SO made fun of me for using the hlaf, which is the only one I learned…somehow. Apparently, at least in high school, all the girls knew how to tie the half Windsor, and the guys couldn’t tie a tie at all. My SO taught me the full Windsor, and now that’s the only one I remember…though its been a year since I’ve had to wear a tie.
Fussell himself was born and raised in southern California, in an ersatz Tudor cottage. Maybe he’s a self-hating Californian who, teaching at Rutgers, was forced to aquire a taste for ivy instead of lotus? (Anyway, I still like his books more than I do his ex-wife’s)
Anyway, full windsor for me - my face is already asymetrical enough, and I don’t like a knot that looks like a toad about to bolt under the tip of my collar.
(Plnnr: not a week goes by in business that I could and would use the phrase “And for an extra fee, I can easily install this little BLUE button to get you down,” if only the SOB I’m dealing with would get the reference).
The men in my family usually tie the half Windsor, except for an uncle who uses a clip-on. I always thought the full Windsor was for more formal affairs. What I would like to know is what Fussell says about the neck tie. When is it appropriate to wear one? The salesman told me that you should tie it just like you do your shoes- but it looks really bad when I do that!
Back in school, half-windsor was the best the football players could manage. Therefore, everyone else tried to do a full windsor in order to not look like a troglodyte. Hardly the view of javaman’s author. Methinks Fussell looks bad in a full or can’t do it right so he’s “spinning” the issue.