Tying a tie properly (or at least so it doesn't look goofy)

Factual Questions
1

Plenty of sites on how to construct the knot (barrel, windsor, half-windsor), and, actually, I can get the knot to behave properly and look respectable.

What I have trouble with is the end of the tie that hangs from the knot (the part in front that gets gradually wider, just to be insultingly clear). There seems to be some trick to getting the tie, after pulling it through whatever knot you’ve fashioned, so that the part directly below the knot has a symmetrical little dimple in the center where the knot cinches it. I’ve even scene these beautifully sculpted visions that had two (or even three!) dimples, again symmetrically placed. Breath-taking!

My own efforts, however, always produce a misplaced, off-to-one-side dimple, so that (for some strange reason) the tie won’t stay centered. As the day progresses, the back part starts to peek around the corner as the front part shifts to one side (this may be related to the tides, but I’m not sure).

I spend the rest of the day shifting everyone back where they belong and pulling the knot tighter–as punishment–until all of us are in quite a bad humor. Often, by the end of the day, the back part (the skinny hanging end) has turned around and is then facing my chest. I mention this in case this information illuminates my problem. I have no explanation for it, other than the tie is rightfully ashamed for all the trouble it’s caused.

I try simply sort of shaping the tie fabric as I pull it through, but to no avail: once the asymmetrical dimple asserts itself, it is as if constructed of iron. It will emerge in the same half-assed position every time, mocking me. I think the physics of this may be related to how tall I am (to get enough tie to hang past the knot, the tie is now thinner where the knot is), but what do I know?

What I want is one of those handsome knot/tie combinations that you see on department store mannequins. Is that too much to ask for? Who knows the trick?

2

Use a half windsor knot. The one that everyone uses for some unknown reason – the four-in-hand – results in the sloppy lopsided knot you describe.

3

I actually did change to the half windsor knot a couple of years ago, still producing the same results (handsome knot, dangling portions–the tie’s not mine–that look by the end of the day as if they’ve just endured a horrible windstorm).

So whatever I’m doing to foul up the proceedings, that change didn’t help. Thanks, though. Anybody other thoughts?

4

Bob, it sounds like the tie is the issue. A good silk tie with a respectible lining should behave better.

(BTW, didn’t Cecil do a column on tie thread codes? I think he concluded it was bunk, but there might be some advice in there.)

5

It’s got something to do with the fabric of the tie, too… I have that problem, too, but only with some of my 53 neckties (yes, I really do have that many. Catholic high school). I haven’t worn one in long enough, though, that I can’t remember what fabrics do what.

6

I agree. In my experience with ties, you get what you pay for (for the most part). Your nicer ties are more likely to give you the dimple you are looking for.

7

Some ties are just ornery. Even the cheap 3-for-$10 silks behave better than some of my old man’s polyester ties that have found their way into my collection. And the wool one that sports my tartan only comes out on special occasions, because of its built-in Scottish stubbornness.

As far as knots go, the half-windsor is where it’s at, for me. Anything else I reserve for fishing line.

8

Per the other posters the “dimple” you are looking for is the combination of three elements.

1: The knotting procedure. You need to really pinch the accordianed tie material (future dimple) firmly in place to keep the dimple centered and essentially be able to tie the rest of the knot and loop through with one hand while you keep the pinch o’ death on the little valley you want maintained through the final and careful tightening procedure and make a TIGHT knot at the end.

2: Tie material. Some materials just won’t dimple properly no matter what you do and would look stupid if they did.
High quality silks are best for a dimple effect.

3: Often overlooked but no less important is the tie backing material. This is what will allow the dimple to be (or not be) formed and maintained with ease. Cheap construction and mediocre material (ie many school ties) make dimpling more difficult.

See the Van Heusen Web site cited (with text) below
http://www.vanheusenindia.com/tieknote.html

"The secret to a well-tied tie is mastering whichever know you choose and ensuring it has a dimple in the centre, just below the knot.

Getting a dimple is easy. Ensure you tie your tie without twisting either end of it Then after pulling the wide end of the tie through the knot, place your index finger in the center of the tie, underneath the knot, making a crease. As you tighten the tie, gradually slip your finger out and the perfect dimple remains.

Caution: be careful not to make it loose"

Now go out there with your perfectly centered dimple and “hail fellow well met” attitude in place and make the BIG deals happen Bob!

9

I tried it, and it seemed to work, though it took me several tries (simple though the procedure sounds).

astro, I believe I owe you and this Van Heusen joker a beer.

10

Yes, he did. Cecil Adams on Does the number of gold threads in a tie’s lining indicate its quality?.

11

I don’t know if this is true, but… I was told by a relative that the lopsided four-in-hand knot is associated with (male) politicians who want to make themselves look more “common”; i.e. … like people who don’t often wear ties and don’t know how or care to tie a more symmetrical half-windsor. I never thought much of the idea until I noticed that it appears to be the knot used when making personal appearances and the half-windsor appears to be worn when making speeches or whatever on TV. Of course, this may just be a case of seeing what I want to see.

I wear a tie almost every day, and I have found that now that I’ve become accustomed to the half-windsor, it’s damn near impossible to tie it any other way.

As to getting the knot correctly, it is true that the quality of the tie makes all the difference. But you also have to “break it in” as well. I don’t know why, but after it’s been tied a few times, it seems easier to get right.

12

Taking a fashion tip here from Cary Grant (the most suave, debonair, and best dressed man I’ve ever seen): Don’t try to get the dimple just right. A little bit off center, a little awkward, a little bit “off” is just right. Perfection looks like you tried too hard; however, do make sure your shoes are ALWAYS shined to a high gloss. No scuffs, no worn heels, no broken shoe strings. Some things just can’t be overlooked.

13

Paul Fussell, dissecting the American social class system
(with a Northeastern bias) holds the view that the too-perfectly rendered full Windsor knot betrays anxiety about one’s appearance. Therefore he favors the half W., though I never cared for it myself, because it sits askew
and tends to loosen spontaneously.

14

On a related note, I recently read about a new book (which alas, I have forgotten the name) about every possible way to tie a tie. These guys were mathematicians, and used topology to prove they had discovered every possible way to tie a tie. And in the process, they discovered two new knots, which they proclaimed as the first new tie knots in 50 years (the last being the Windsor knot, from around 1950).
One major branch of topology is the study of knots, and these guys did an incredible amount of math for this study, and presented ALL of the possible knots in their book. I checked it out, and the book is kinda expensive (like $25 for a dinky little paperback). I wish someone would just leak the info and tell us the two new knots, they claim they look better than all the existing methods of tying your necktie. But I’m sure as hell not paying $25 to learn their little secret.

15

On a related note, I recently read about a new book (which alas, I have forgotten the name) about every possible way to tie a tie. These guys were mathematicians, and used topology to prove they had discovered every possible way to tie a tie. And in the process, they discovered two new knots, which they proclaimed as the first new tie knots in 50 years (the last being the Windsor knot, from around 1950).
One major branch of topology is the study of knots, and these guys did an incredible amount of math for this study, and presented ALL of the possible knots in their book. I checked it out, and the book is kinda expensive (like $25 for a dinky little paperback). I wish someone would just leak the info and tell us the two new knots, they claim they look better than all the existing methods of tying your necktie. But I’m sure as hell not paying $25 to learn their little secret.

16

Since reading a newspaper article several years ago, I’ve tied nothing but a Shelby, which is perfectly symmetrical, just the right size, and makes dimpling easy.

I’m sceptical of my ability to provide written instructions here, especially since I’m sitting at work. I’ll try once I get home.

17

How to tie a Shelby knot

A Puzzle Fit to Be Tied - Applying Math to Knots for the Neck
Describes the attempts by two mathematicians to invent new tie knots.

(edited to fix links)

18

Ah, that’s what I was talking about. But somehow, the “7,2 knot” just doesn’t have the catchy name it needs. Maybe they should call it the “Fink-Mao” knot, after the inventors.

BTW, sorry for the duplicate post. Maybe the moderator can nuke the extra copy.

19

Doh! I can, but only if no one makes reference to it before I get to it; this prevents inconsistency in the threads.

Sorry about that.

20

Tried it on a particularly uncooperative tie, and I think this Shelby guy may be on to something. Nice knot and a perfect dimple. My life is now complete.

Good tips from everyone. I certainly appreciate it.