Guys, clearly Stoid is the resident weight-loss expert here. I don’t think it’s any use arguing with her.
Because obviously everybody doing Weight Watchers is starving themselves to the point of chopping their fingers off. It’s a tragic epidemic, really.
It’s hard for the restaurant employees to throw rocks at them to scare them away from the dumpsters, what with them sobbing “Just one more point! Please, I ran out of flex points, it won’t happen again, please let me have this rutabega!”
Meaning what? That until 40 years ago everyone was hunting and gathering for supper?
And why would mere availability of food mean people eat it to excess? That would mean that overeating and becoming fat is our natural state and the only way to stop ourselves from doing that is either to avoid having too much food available or to be a superior human that can control our natural instinct to stuff ourselves into morbid obesity.
Judging from this:
you seem to think that yes, the only way to avoid being fat is to be like the Great Generation(s) that preceded us and overcome our (built-in) instinct/desire/need to stuff ourselves silly.
But what evidence is there that it is natural for us to stuff ourselves into morbid obesity and that the only reason we haven’t before is because of internal fortitude or outside pressure in the form of inadequate supply? And why would that be true anyway? Do you think evolution designed us to stuff ourselves to morbid obesity? It designed us to crave calorie-dense food, definitely, but not to overeat consistently - those are two different things.
Stop being coy, Stoid, you clearly have a theory about something that changed 40 years ago. What is it?
I’m sure she’s going to say “carbs!!!”, although my grandparents certainly ate a shit-ton of potatoes Back in the Day.
A better answer would be “cheaper food”, as we now spend a significantly lower portion of our incomes on food than previously (and a much lower portion than people elsewhere, particularly in lower income places on the planet.)
You can’t just ignore the part of this study you want to ignore. You can’t report the psychological issues these guys had without acknowledging that they were not just a bit hungry, they had numerous factors making them miserable. The subjects had serious health problems caused by their extreme diet - normal dieters should not be having those issues, and if they are they’re doing something wrong. The take-away message is not ‘dieting makes you crazy’, it’s ‘malnutrition makes you crazy’.
No, of course not, please don’t twist my words. My argument is that while dieting and malnutrition-level starvation may be on the same broad continuum of ‘calorie restriction’, the gulf between them is so vast that citing a study on one tells you very little about how the other one feels. You said that dieters feel *exactly *like the Keys subjects, that their suffering is *just *as 'shocking and disturbing;:
And now you are admitting that true starvation is on a different level than simple dieting. I never said that dieting wasn’t sometimes unpleasant, I was just disagreeing with the use of Keys study as a summary of the psychological effects of dieting. Is cutting down your calorie intake a kind of suffering? Sure, the same way that getting a papercut on my finger is a kind of suffering. But I can’t compare it to having my arm amputated at the shoulder, and I’m not going to say “my papercut really hurts - here’s a link to an article about the effects of massive traumatic blood loss so you know what I’m going through”.
I love you, Stoid-
But sorry, on this, you are wrong. Perhaps not for your body, but you are wrong for my body.
I can eat all I want and much more than my current caloric intake, and I will lose weight if I exercise for 30 minutes each day on the treadmill. I have been losing 40-60 pounds a year, every other year. I keep falling off the treadmill, and I hop back on after I eat my way back up without exercise. I then exercise my way back down, lather, rinse, repeat.
People are different.
We are also way more sedentary. Most people in previous generations did a lot more physical work in the form of labour, chores, transportation, etc.
There’s plenty of evidence that our modern obesity epidemic is not the result of a change in physiology or desire or whatever. People in the past who had unlimited access to food and no need to exert themselves became fat just fine. Think Henry VIII (among other monarchs) - all the food he wanted, servants to do everything for him, big fat giant ass, didn’t care. It was just that very few people had that luxury.
If you make an unlimited amount of food available to a dog or cat, it will become fat.
Without fail, **Stoid **shows up in every weight loss thread to inform us that weight loss is an enigma, full of mystery and magic. She also tries to convince us that her body does not obey the laws of physics.
I’ve mentioned this before, but I suppose it’s worth repeating.
What worked for me was cutting out saturated fat from my diet.
Doing this has two effects:
- It takes all kinds of fattening foods off the menu - cheeses, ice cream, red meat, Alfredo sauce, etc.
- It eliminates a very dense source of calories. Which means you can eat more bulk and still reduce calories.
So, I was able (with exercise) to lose 30 lbs and never feel hungry.
I actually got thinner than I wanted, so I am carefully trying to put some of the weight back on, hopefully as muscle.
I’m sincere about not wanting to discuss the answer - my purpose is genuinely about trying to get y’all to see the question. There is a fundamental disconnect in the discussion, not just here obviously but generally. People just accept something that is really not acceptable if you examine it, as outlined in my previous posts. If you start from a flawed premise, your answers are going to be flawed.
If you keep missing critical parts of the picture, you are not going to solve the problem. Until people start being more critical in their thinking on the subject (vs. critical in their judgment…) we are going to continue as we have and the misery will expand.
So instead of recycling the question of “how can people stop eating so much and being so fat?” try the question of “Why do people eat so much and get so fat to begin with?” And examine the answers that pop up to see if they make real sense. Does it make sense to say it’s because there’s lots of food around? Why would that make sense, because people are naturally gluttons? Does it make sense to think that people are naturally inclined to gluttony? Do we have a lot of evidence that this is true? And so on…
Really? 
I am not putting forth my opinion on the subject, just the research.
Meyer: later. I suddenly find myself once again using the Dope to avoid doing stuff that is critically important, and getting into big wrangles is going to leave me very unhappy at the end of the day. But I’ll address you when I can give myself permission to do it without sressing with anxiety over what I should be doing instead. And because of my oft-cited impulse control issues I haven’t really even read it because if I do I’ll tell myself “oh, it will just take a second…” so maybe I won’t have a big answer, I dunno yet.
By the way, I draw a distinction between people who find their weight has crept up with passing years and find they need to drop the extra 20-50 pounds they’ve added vs. people who are fighting morbid obesity, the numbers of whom have expanded exponentially in my lifetime and continue to grow. Middle age spread has been a common fact of human life since forever- life-altering obesity starting in childhood and continuing throughout life used to be rare. It’s not anymore, and that’s the obesity issue that needs to be looked at differently, as well as how what would have been normal middle age spread has so frequently morphed into midlife cases of morbid obesity as well.
A. Not automatically true.
B. Since dogs and cats live with us, that should be a clue in itself.
Stoid -
There’s a ton of evidence that portion size is a big factor in explaining why Americans are so fat.
There have been plenty of studies that show that people tend to eat whatever is put in front of them, regardless of whether they are actually hungry or not. So, people may not be gluttons per se, but they eat more than they should because restaurants serve portions that are much bigger than they need be.
If you look at ads on TV, you will see all the fast-food chains advertising how much food you can get for a few bucks. They don’t advertise the fact that they have sensible portion sizes.
True, but I have noticed that a lot of fat people are really into rationalizing how special their fat is and why tried and true methods of not gaining weight in the first place or losing it or keeping it off either won’t or doesn’t work for them and their special fat.
Research or no, all I know is that I didn’t lose almost 80 pounds and counting without reducing my portion sizes. Healthy diet + smaller portions = smaller, healthier Robin. 
(I’m not going to bother to edit. I’m just going to post again.)
You may be on to something here. A lot of people in my Weight Watchers group have rationalized their weight problems by blaming genetics or whatever it is that makes them not take responsibility for their obesity. It’s not their fault they’ve got crappy genes, after all. Then they end up with medical problems like diabetes, high cholesterol, serious arthritis, and they get read the riot act and told to try WW. And they do and they lose weight and those problems magically go away.
Simple. Some fat isn’t bound by the laws of physics!
I think there’s a ton of evidence that portion sizes in America are large.
Why? When did people start demanding / expecting huge portions? Smaller portions were ok before, why would Americans as a group start wanting them to grow? Why would restaurants just decide to start serving big portions, when econcomically they are better off with smaller ones, unless people wanted it and responded to it, and why would they do that out of the blue?
So is this your argument:
a. People are mostly normal weight eating normal portions for all time until 1970 or so.
b. Restaurants begin serving giant portions (at an economic disadvantage, just because)
c. everyone cleans their plate and gets fat.
And that explains the rampant obesity in this country?
I say again: ask yourself if that makes sense.