You know, I was wondering if anyone was going to address this point. I’ve recently developed diabetes and have been really struggling to create a healthy, low-carb diet. It is remarkable how much more expensive it is! Whole-grain pasta is half again the cost of generic semolina. Fructose-sweetened stuff is twice the cost of corn-syrup-flavored. Lean cuts of meat are the most expensive. And of course, as has already been noted, virtually all ‘convenience packaged’ foods have inordinately high quantities of fat, sugar, salt, etc., etc. Since I’ve gone on this low-carb diet, our grocery bill has probably gone up 50%. It’s really annoying how difficult, and expensive, it is to eat healthy.
Ever been to a ‘health food store’? $$$
After reading through most of these posts (and adding a few along the way) it seems that the bottom line is this. We’re all different. We all have a different opinion on what is beautiful. We all know being overweight is unhealthy. We all know it is hard to lose weight. We all know name calling is juvinile and unconstructive and hurtful. We know healthier food is more expensive. We all know there are ALWAYS going to be insensitive assholes who take out their self-loathing on others. Igrorance breeds contempt. I vote that we change the topic of this thread to “Practical applications of making idiots fight tigers a la ‘Gladiator’”. Then fatties could eat cheesecake in the shade and assholes could spout their vitriol while running from angry tigers. Where’s the flaw in THAT plan!?!?!?
webmastr and Doc Moss, you both assert that fat people should not complain about their treatment from others because being fat is under their control. However, you have yet to offer proof that for the obese, being fat is controllable. (Oh, except for some documentary on 13 people. Sheesh.)
On the other hand, my learned colleagues and I have offered evidence that for the obese, being fat is NOT an issue of willpower and control, to wit:
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Some people are addicted to food, use food for psychological pain, etc. I personally don’t like this explanation and don’t think it applies to most who are obese, but surely it applies to some.
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Rats who have generations of fat ancestors get fat, even when they are fed the same diets and given the same exercise as rats of normal weight.
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Several of us have posted our experiences with trying to lose weight. It is very, very hard. To give you one more concrete example, losing weight for me does not mean skipping that bag of potato chips at lunch. It means I haven’t had a bag of potato chips in years. It means that lately I have given up on the baked chips, 'cause they are high carb, even if they are low fat. Wanna know what I had for dinner? A grilled chicken breast, a cup of cauliflower (steamed) and a cup of no-fat chicken broth, mushroom, and barley soup. Water to drink. Yummy, I assure you. If I want to lose weight, that is how I have to eat–along with walking the treadmill every morning. (and yes, every damn meal is like that.)
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Bariatricians (weight-loss MDs) don’t know how to help people lose weight, but you think it is somehow easy???
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(New point here) No one gets to be 75 or 100 pounds overwieght simply through poor diet and lack of exercise. You couldn’t do it if you tried. Sure, you could put on some weight, but do you think you could grow to be the size of John Goodman or your typical sumo wrestler? Of course you couldn’t. Both of you have said you have sympathy for those of us with medical reasons for our weight. Well, big shocker for you boys…that probably means virtually all of us who are obese.
Both of you have said that you are annoyed by fat people’s complaints because they can control their weight. Can you refute the evidence given above that indicates that for those who are obese, weight is controlled not at all, or only with great difficulty? Can you offer evidence that it is, in fact, just a matter of willpower for the obese to lose weight?
My mom always referred to is as “poverty plump”.
Uh, what grocery stores do you shop at? Fresh produce is usually about the most expensive thing in the store. If you want cheap, try the rice & bean aisle.
My experience is that most of the fat people I know eat about the same amount, if not less, food than I do. And I’ve been known to make a beanpole look downright portly. I have to question the validity of this claim; it flies in the face of the anecdotal evidence I’ve personally witnessed. Have you anything concrete to offer in support of your allegation?
Let’s not forget that a low fat diet is a very bad idea for children, especially young children. I have read case studies of children who were permanently braindamaged by being put on inadequately fatty diets. Developing brains need cholesterol and other fats to grow properly.
Not to mention that most low-fat foods taste like paste. If I had a choice between weighing 300 pounds and eating a low-fat diet, I’d take the 300 pounds and not even look back.
Exactly. Try losing weight on that. Especially when you’re one of those people who has eat the low fat, low calorie, no sugar stuff every meal to lose a single pound.
- Okay, maybe produce isn’t the cheapest, but it is a lot cheaper than frozen TV dinners. And healthier too.
- Um, , , , yea, , -and I said it: nobody gets fat from breathing. Do people on hunger strikes get thinner or fatter? ~ Either the combination of overeating and/or lack of exercise bears directly on one’s physical condition, or it doesn’t. There’s some variation from person to person, but basically, it is that simple. I (and a great percentage of the medical community) would question the validity of any other claim. - MC
of a phenomenon I’ve observed for years now: there aren’t that many seriously obese and seriously wealthy people. At least, not that I’ve seen. And especially not women.
Having a great deal of money is one of the greatest support systems there is to losing weight. I offer as evidence:
Oprah Winfrey (it still took her 20 years, and she still struggles to this day, though)
Rush Limbaugh
Roseanne
Hmmm.
Just an observation.
When I look in the mirror, I don’t think “Oh, if only I could lose all this weight, then I might not look repulsive.” When I look in the mirror, I usually think, “Is my skirt tucked into my underwear?” But after that (and untucking said skirt), I think “I look pretty good today.” Sometimes, I think, “I’m looking damn good today.”
I am built much like those stone age statuettes labeled as fertility goddesses. I do not compulsively overeat. I no longer starve myself. I eat a normal diet. I do not eat more than my much thinner friends, and often I eat less than they do. I do not deserve to be ridiculed for my weight. I do not need or want advice on how to slim down. My blood pressure is on the low side of normal. Unlike my dieting co-workers, I am not constantly distracted by food cravings. I am flexible enough to not just touch my toes, but also to palm the floor. I have unbelievable stamina in bed, and get a lot of exercise there every day.
Anyone who belittles fat people is no better than those who belittle any other specific group. When my dieting co-worker offered me advice on how to make myself better through dieting, I told her just how good my life is. I think she is still sick with envy.
MC said “Do people on hunger strikes get thinner or fatter? ~ Either the combination of overeating and/or lack of exercise bears directly on one’s physical condition, or it doesn’t. There’s some variation from person to person, but basically, it is that simple. I (and a great percentage of the medical community) would question the validity of any other claim.”
So the fact that people who eat NO food lose weight is your evidence for how “simple” it is to lose weight?
Boy, those folks who are trying dieting, exercise, and weight loss surgery are going to feel like idiots when they read that just going on a hunger strike would have worked. Geez, if there was just some way to make money from this idea…
“Some variation from person to person”? Try a hell of a lot of variation.
I question that all people who are fat are fat because they overeat. I think that some people are just fat because they’re fat. They don’t overeat, unless you define “overeating” as “eating enough food such that your weight remains above the magical number we, the medical establishment, have decided represents your ideal weight”. By this definition, some people are overeating when they eat a carrot.
Been stopping by this thread from time to time and this surprised me. I read up on this person, and it appears she had part of her intestinal system surgically removed.
I havea friend who has celica’s disease. He’s always been thin, and we teased him before we knew the problem.
He’s had several operations, each removing part of his intestines.
HOWEVER. These operations DID NOT affect his diet.
He still ate pizza and ice cream, and all the other goodies he ate before. It is just that every time he had an operation, he extracted fewer nutrients from his food, and had to take more supplements.
The last time he had to drop out of college (1 and 1/2 years from the end) to spend most of his time at home and in and out of the clinic.
I can’t imagine what sort of special diet she would be on after undergoing the same voluntarily, but small portions seems unlikely to be a part of it.
Yes, it is depressing, and is sorta the body modification/ plastic surgery business taken to an extreme, but I think the end result would be the need to eat more, not less.
Anyway, could be wrong, but your statement seemed incorrect, from personal experience.
“The surgery is called Roux-en-Y gastric bypass. It creates a smaller stomach capacity which forces a reduction in food intake. Patients eat less because they feel fuller sooner and avoid foods that are high in fat because the digestive system will no longer easily tolerate them.”
I forgot to rake you over the coals for the above statement. Give me a few minutes of your time and then you can resume taking a beating from the rest of the posters here.
You provide here a crystal clear case demonstrating the danger of pseudoscience in action. Your most damning sentence is the last. In my very first post in this thread, before I even mentioned your original thread, I said:
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Replace the word biology above with ‘science’ or ‘the scientific method’ and you will get an accurate description of the style of documentary you watched. Some of the posters here explained the documentary’s shortcomings to you. A rational individual would run like the wind to distance himself from any conclusions derived from such a study. Why? Because if it’s a shitty study its conclusions are shitty as well. Not that it’s impossible for the conclusions of a shitty study to be correct. It’s that a given conclusion reached by virtue of a shitty study is of no value in logical discourse. It may be true, but the study does nothing validate or negate it. Once someone explains to you why it sucks, and you agree, you can’t rationally use the study to support your premise anymore. Unless you are a raving lunatic.
I don’t think you are, IMO. But learning can be a painful process. It’s always hard to admit mistakes. On the other hand, I’ve witnessed on this message board, strong shows of support for posters who admit that their original views may have been a bit off the mark. Are you still sure that your beliefs are justified?
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- As to the OP, I have read and heard comments of how fat the average American is, from more than one source.
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- As to many, many of the other posts, it is pure, total bullshit to claim that how much calories one eats and how little one exercises has nothing to do with one’s weight.
“I was born fat,” -really? You were born 100 lbs overweight?
“I have medical problems,” -yes, so do many others, fat, thin and in between. What’s your point?
“I can’t control my eating,” -well, , yes, you can. You just don’t want to enough. - If you wanna be fat, have fun. It’s not my business to tell you either way really, but to complain about being discriminated against is more than a bit ridiculous. And this is the Pit. ~ Discrimination isn’t fair, but life isn’t fair, and being fat is something that is possible to change, should one find the mettle.
- And sometimes social discrimination against fat people isn’t unwarranted. There’s some activities they simply aren’t suitable for. I tend towards some of those activities (when I have the time) so fat chicks just don’t work for me.
- The Carnie Wilson thing is pretty bizarre though. I know an RN who a couple days ago hit the highlights of the procedure and its permanent consequences for me. I’ll stick to the stairmaster, thanks. - MC
Biggirl, dropzone, Stoidela, Brynda, choosybeggar…
I have read all of your posts, and for me to sit down and reply to every single conflicting view you have with me would send me insane.
“Give me a few minutes of your time and then you can resume taking a beating from the rest of the posters here”.
I can’t argue with that. Which is why I am exiting this thread. I can argue with 1 on 1, 2 on 1, even 3 on 1. All in all there are about 9 people who have posted conflicting views of mine and I can’t keep up with it all.
So as I said, I will be leaving here.
I’ll finish by saying that when I made my first post here, I was ignorant of some of the factors relating to why people are obese. I was ignorant of the numbers of people who are obese when it is completely out of their control. I was probably ignorant of a few things. However, it appears as though people are viewing me as someone who looks down on fat people, when I don’t. I do not view myself as superior to them. I do not call them names. I don’t descriminate against them.
I have had my eyes opened to a lot of things here that I did not know before.
BUT…
I still believe there are some people who could easily lose their weight if they just bothered to start eating properly, but choose not to, due to laziness, attention seeking, whatever…
Perhaps these people are in an overwhelming minority, which I initially thought was impossible. I don’t know.
Good day.
**MC **
Here, here!
Sorry, I was misinformed. I thought it involved removal of part of intestine, not part of the stomach.
What happens when they eat fatty food?
Doc, the “give me a few minutes of your time and then I will let you resume taking a beating from the other posters” remark was intended as a joke. But humor has its roots in reality, right? I definitely did not envy you your task.
As I said in an earlier post, you seem to me a reasonable guy. You expressed your feelings on an issue, and people, generally speaking, can and will have whatever feelings they choose, and they’ll express them in the damndest places.
Your choice of venue was a poor one for the notions you espouse. There are plenty of places in this big ol’ land where your views probably would be construed as charitable. To summarize:
1)I don’t hate fatness, society does.
2)Most fat people could control their weight problem with a less than herculean effort.
3)Therefore if they wish to avoid society’s scorn, lose weight.
#1 sounds sympathetic, #3 follows if you buy premise #1 and #2, but #2, that’s the big problem. You, and the other posters with similar views to yours, all endorse premise #2 but don’t offer any facts to support it. I know it seems as if fatness is simply the appetite out of control, the appetite that you know, the one that only eats the right amounts, and that all fat people have to do is eat less and exercise more, no more problema. But I invite you to consider that there may be very powerful forces involved in the control of food intake. And if you can’t substantiate your views on the willpower (lack thereof) of the obese, at least take a more charitable view of their situation.
I can’t imagine exactly the lesson that you will take away from your experience in this thread. You were definitely “ganged-up” on, but not because people here hated your conclusions, but because you could not present an argument to support them. That will always make somebody here very angry. The SDMB (as you know) places a premium on rational discourse. I imagine if you take your views most other places, you can find a ready audience that will view you as a guy with a heart. Hopefully, that wil not be how you deal with this topic in the future, because that’s the easy way out. Hopefully, you will follow a path, that while it is terrifyingly more challenging, ultimately this second path is the more rewarding. The path is that of intense self-scrutiny. Before an idea creeps into the autopilot part of your brain (a locus we all possess) put it through the ringer, make sure it belongs. It’s been a pleasure.
CB