mhendo, you are very busy in this thread poo-poohing others’ opinions and decrying their attempts to explain why they feel the way they do. What’s YOUR opinion then?
Do you truly think that a father and daughter (or mother and son) can have a healthy and fulfilling sexual and emotional relationship? Do you think that it is only the disapproval of society that makes the relationship dodgy? Do you really believe that everything will be just hunky-dory if they are left to do their own thing? Do you actually think their relationship is just as ‘valid’ as any other that ‘consenting adults’ enter into?
I’m too late to edit, but I should have included a mother/daughter and/or a father/son relationship in the ‘can they possibly be healthy’ category if we’re going to be, like, all-inclusive on the anything-goes nowadays bandwagon.
Ah, it’s me again, sorry about posting three times in a row!
Today’s update on the saga is that there is a police investigation into the fact that the freaks sold their story to a commercial network for big bucks: unfortunately, because they have been convicted and sentenced for the incest crime/s, they are NOT allowed to profit from any proceeds accumulating from any source related to that crime. IOW, they can tell their story but they can’t SELL their story or even write their own.
I wonder if 60 Minutes told the poor schmucks before their interview/s that they’d be doing it for nothing but the infamy?
Not quite sure now who are the biggest sleazebags. :rolleyes:
Now this is in the Pit I s’pose it’s all right for me to ask how the most pertinent detail of this whole story is being missed, namely…
…how the hell did they give birth to a nine-month-old girl? Keep it in there with gaffer tape until it sallied forth like fine champagne? An enquiring public needs to know.
He’s asking them to defend them more rigorously than they seem capable of.
When one realizes that one is banging one’s head against a wall, sometimes it’s just more cathartic to say something like, “you’re not only a moron, you’re a stubborn one.”
Dude, I’m not saying that the relationship is automatically fucked up because he met her when she was a teen. I’m just saying it’s slightly more odd. There isn’t exactly a precedent for this kind of relationship working out well in the past–usually, it’s a sign of abuse. The guy may not be a total creep, but in any event, I wouldn’t leave my (hypothetical) kids alone with him.
When I was 16, during my home town’s summer fiesta, my group of friends spent one night with the cousin of one of us and his friends from another town where I have family. That group included a cute guy who wasn’t even from that other town, but from the islands; he and his family were on vacation in that other town.
Two days later we went to that other town, to visit my great uncle in the hospital. And I got introduced to my second cousin on Dad’s side :smack: we’d both been thinking about trying to get the other’s contact information, after a night spent talking about the humane, the divine and everything in between.
We had similar, complicated senses of humor and the same notion that discussion is a perfectly fine mode of comunication. The cuteness was genetic, the conversation had at least a big part of being nurtured (Dad’s side of the family does consider discussion a sort of bonding ritual).
There is a case in Galicia (Spain) of a brother and sister who didn’t find their birthmother (who’d given both to adoption) and so didn’t know they were half-siblings until after they’d had three kids. Their situation has been used to defend more and easier access to birthparents information for adopted children.
I have a cousin my own age. This may be related to body posture, but when we were teens and in her homeland (where her father’s genes are from), guys flocked to her and took a while to realize there was another girl there; same time and in my homeland (where my Dad’s genes came from), guys flocked to me and managed to miss the presence of a redhead. You know, as if redheads were easy to miss!
The plural of anecdote isn’t data; also, only because an attraction exists doesn’t mean you have to drop your pants (otherwise some folks wouldn’t be able to go for a walk). But sometimes you do get inappropiate attraction.
People in this thread are not just trying to “explain why they feel the way they do.” They’ve been trying to imply or, in some cases, explicitly assert, a direct connection between their subjective feelings and objective notions of good and bad. That’s one problem, because just because something makes you feel icky, doesn’t make it objectively wrong.
They’ve also been drawing patently absurd conclusions and making bald statements of fact that have little basis in reality. For example, Freudian Slit’s assertion that the one week this couple spent together when she was a teenager somehow might have constituted an effort by the father to “groom” his daughter for a sexual relationship. Do you really believe, based on what we know about the case, that this is what happened?
And what about [n]Nightrabbit**'s assertion that the simple fact of biological fatherhood is the same thing as a father-daughter relationship? Do you seriously believe that a mere awareness that a person is your biological father, even if you’ve never had anything at all to do with him, constitutes what we think of, socially and culturally, as a father-daughter relationship?
As i said earlier, i know who my biological father is and where to find him, but that is basically all i know about him. To suggest that this awareness means that we have a father-son relationship, in any social or cultural sense, is preposterous. I don’t think of him as my father in anything but the most narrow genetic sense.
I was also extremely impressed with Nightrabbit’s thoughtful and sophisticated psychological analysis of the situation, which went something like:
I admit that i haven’t looked up the DSM IV to see whether incest qualifies as a mental illness, so i guess for the moment i can’t dispute Nightrabbit’s scientific and clinical explanation. But to make an assertion of scientific fact, and then to say that nothing anyone says will ever change your mind on the matter strikes me as, shall we say, rather unscientific. Or batshit insane. Take your pick.
I gave my opinion to you quite clearly in the other thread on this subject, but here it is again:
I’m not arguing that people shouldn’t feel “icky” or uncomfortable about this. It pushes some of my ick buttons as well.
In THIS PARTICULAR CASE, my answer to your questions is Yes.
As i’ve also said (i can’t remember if it’s in this thread or the other one), this case is, if not sui generis, at least so unusual as to require evaluation on its own merits, and to require that we put aside many of the issues, such as imbalances of power between parents and minor children, that (rightly) play such an important role in most discussions of incest.
I’ve already stated quite explicitly that i would feel much differently about this case if i had any reason to believe that the father had, indeed, been making some sort of attempt to initiate this relationship while the child was a minor, or if i had any reason to believe that the woman’s attraction to the man had formed during her pre-adult years.
here’s what i said about it in the other thread:
and
If people in this thread could stop pretending, just for a minute, that this particular case is just like every other parent-child incest case, and that exactly the same rules apply here as in all other incest cases, i could at least have some respect for their opinions on the matter. But the tendency to wilfully ignore the very circumstances that make this case unique, as the moron Nightrabbit has been doing, demonstrate either an intellectual failing or a deliberate attempt at obfuscation, and either way i’m not interested in dealing with it.
There’s no precedent for it working out well in the past? Really? Do you know that for a fact?
And, even if you’re right, doesn’t it simply further support my claim that this case is, in fact, so dramatically different from more common types of incest that we need to assess it on its own merits? After all, while this story has only just hit the headlines recently this couple has been together, as a couple, for just over 8 years. According to the US Census Bureau (PDF), one on five Americans has been divorced in their life, and the median length of first marriages is right about 8 years, and of second marriages is about 8.5 years. So, if your definition of a relationship “working out well” is in any way tied to its longevity, these folks are already pretty much average, and by all indications they seem very happy.
As for not leaving your kids with the guy, well, that’s your choice of course. But it has still nowhere been demonstrated that he feels any attraction towards underage girls, whether or not they’re his daughter. Personally, i’d be more worried about some 55-year-old businessman who blows his money on lap-dances and 18-year-old hookers than i would about this guy who appears perfectly happy with his 39-year-old wife and their bland domestic existence. YMMV.
The funny thing is, the sort of hysteria displayed in this thread could, as some have suggested, place such pressure on the family that they end up having trouble staying together. If and when that happens, the same people who created all the pressure will then no doubt shake their heads sadly and wisely and say that they knew it just couldn’t last.
What I want to know is what was the reason for the woman’s mum and dad divorce and why the daughter had no contact w/him for several years?
Second wife tries to talk the daughter into “sharing” the dad/husband? WTF?
Daughter went through divorce/seperation of her own… reason?
Is this man/father taking advantage of her mental state of mind? My guess is that this woman is so desperate for love that she wont stop to get what is easy for her and daddy dear is not only a cheating spouse, but a selfish one who can only think with his penis. Jesus. Get a divorce first and then go fuck your daughter that you are so in love with because the sex is great you sickening primate of a so called man.
Dont throw these self-made victims into jail - hell no, throw them into a mental institution for a full evaluation and let’s see what the professionals say and let’s hope they get the full history.
BTW - does anyone know if incest and/or child molesting has any genetic disposition?
There are two presumptions at work, both rebuttable:
The ethical presumption that everyone should be free to mate with whom they please, assuming meaningful consent and no harm to others; and
The factual presumption that a parent-child incest case lacks meaningful consent and will result in harm to others. The relationship lacks meaningful consent because of the inherently special nature of the parent-child relationship.
The second presumption is, really, the main root of people’s objections to incest (aside from instinctive revulsion or religious objections). This clearly distinguishes incest from other sorts of relationships, such as homosexual and inter-racial. No-one can convincingly argue that such relationships presumptively lack consent.
Now, in this particular case, it may be argued that the second presumption has been rebutted because the daughter did not know about dad until she was an adult, and hence had no sort of relationship with dad at all. However, that argument is weakened if in fact they did know each other when she was a teen. This adds some strength to the second presumption, and thus some logical legitimacy to the instinctive reaction that this relationship isn’t one that should be sedulously fostered.
But when that second presumption has been specifically rebutted by the people who are actually involved in this case, when that rebuttal has been accepted by a court of law, and when even a hostile third party (the guy’s ex-wife) hasn’t actually alleged that there was anything untoward about that single week of interaction when she was 15 years old, then maybe people need to accept that even the second presumption might not apply to this particular instance.
And “sedulously fostered”? Fostered by whom? Society? The law? I’ve never argued that we should sedulously foster their relationship, nor that society needs to do go out of its way to carefully and persistently promote their union. I’ve simply been arguing that maybe we should let them be, leave them the fuck alone, and stop trying to make the failure of their relationship a self-fulfilling prophecy by subjecting them to extreme scorn and humiliation.
Of course, they asked for that a bit, themselves, by agreeing to appear on a national current affairs TV show. That’s actually the one area where i don’t feel very sorry for them. People who whore themselves out to the sensationalist media (and make no mistake, the Australian 60 Minutes is sensationalist media) should not be surprised when it results in negative public attention.
I’m risking mhendo’s ire again, but what the hell.
One of the things that bothers me – that I don’t understand – is how casual Jenny was about starting the sexual relationship. It appears that she gave it no serious thought whatsoever. She was attracted to him – that’s all it took.
I suppose that could argue for the naturalness of their relationship – that it was so easy and comfortable and they felt no guilt – but to me it indicates a disconnect, that she could enter into the relationship so casually.
It’s one thing to give in to your feelings after some serious consideration of the possible consequences. It’s quite another to be so careless and thoughtless about it.
And yeah, they’re consenting adults, there was no coercion, etc., but wouldn’t most of us struggle just a little bit before going through with it?
Well, according to the article linked in the OP, they were in fact found guilty of the offence of incest:
… which suggests that “leaving them the fuck alone” would require changes to the law in that jurisdiction - meaning that society at large would have to be sufficiently outraged by the injustice of the conviction to pressure politicians to cease making parent-child incest a strict liability offence.
There may be a case to be made, based on the extremely unusual nature of this relationship - but the onus is quite clearly on them to establish this. Evidence that they did in fact meet in her teens and that they were not total strangers as adults when they started this affair tends to undermine the discharge of that onus.
I don’t recall ever denying that they broke the law. I’m not talking about the law, though; i’m talking about the moral outrage expressed in this thread.
In the absence of any other evidence, it might. In this case, it doesn’t. Are you actually interested in discussing this incident in its totality, or merely in picking discrete parts of it that happen to satisfy your predispositions?
Never mind, i’m done anyway.
Don’t worry, i’m all out of ire. It’s transformed into ennui, impelled by people’s constant willingness to either ignore this actual situation, to pretend that it’s like other situations, or to simply keep moving the goalposts.
Now you’re asking me to answer the question of whether the woman went into the relationship too easily, and “wouldn’t most of us struggle just a little bit before going through with it?”
What do you want me to say?
“Yes, i think most of us would struggle a bit”? or “No, i completely understand why someone wouldn’t have any hesitation in fucking her dad”?
No answer i give will satisfy you. It won’t change your mind, nor will it convince you of the merits of any earlier argument i’ve made. I’m not interested in playing anymore.
I’m not saying you did. I’m merely responding to your question:
Pointing out that, in this case, more than mere indifference would be required to reach your stated goal of “leaving them alone”.
I’m simply answering the challenge, repeated by you and others, to demonstrate a logical basis for why one could legitimately take the position that this relationship is not okay, without merely resorting to the emotive language of outrage.
There is, I think, a natural reaction to expressed qualms of outrage - to think that, because it is instinctual and based on prejudice, it must therefore be wrong because so many other forms of prejudice (for example racial) are wrong.
But sometimes instinct and prejudice are just short-hand for presumptions and generalizations that are useful, because they have good predictive value. Logic is the tool for unpacking instinct and prejudice and hopefully discarding those which are incorrect. I remain unconvinced that the prejudice against parent-child incest is incorrect in this case.
I’m trying to sort out the various relationships. Since the child is the daughter of the father, that makes her her mothers half-sister. Your sister’s daughter is your niece, so that makes the girl her own aunt/niece. Any other combos I’m not thinking of?
That’s almost up there with being your own grandpa.
Oh, c’mon, Bryan, no way we’d approve of that… not until she’s twenty one
But seriously, just because some of us could imagine letting it slide in the case of two particular individuals under specific circumstances were it not for there being children in the equation, doesn’t mean we can’t conclude otherwise for any other possible set of circumstances.
**Antinor01 ** --Let’s see, the babe is the woman’s own daughter and sister, and the man’s daughter and granddaughter; she’s sister and aunt to any other children of the woman, and she’s sister and niece to any other children of the man; and yes, she’s her own aunt and niece. For any future children, assuming she goes on to reproduce under normal conditions, Grandma would be Auntie, Granddad and great-granddad would be the same person, and their maternal aunts and uncles woudl be also their cousins.
:eek:
And the mind can only imagine the amount of Interet pr0n that has THAT plot…
Exactly. As has been noted upthread, people walk away from potential relationships/attractions all the time because for one reason or another, they recognise that there is a good reason *not *to pursue a relationship there.
Generally the reasons are a lot less in-your-face obvious than ‘because he’s my father’/‘because she’s my daughter’.
All the arguing about whether or not the two people here have some kind of mental illness just boggles me - how on earth can ‘I saw it; I wanted it; I took it’, without any kind of ‘is this appropriate?’ filter kicking in, NOT be evidence of some kind of mental illness or retardation?
**Normal people do not operate like that. They make decisions based on more than just ‘I want’. **
The word for people aggressively pursue their own ‘I want’ agenda without concern for the impact on anyone else is ‘sociopath’. When you fuck your dad and then bring him into a relationship with your two existing children as their father/grandfather, you’re acting like a sociopath.
When you go ahead and compound the situation by bringing a child born of incest into the world knowing full well the kind of stigma it will inevitably encounter (not to mention how it’s going to feel when it’s old enough to realise what its parentage actually means), you’re acting like a sociopath.
Normal, sane people do not deliberately do that stuff. I’m astounded that anyone can even suggest that these people are operating on all cylinders; they’re clearly fucked up.
