You don’t see what’s wrong with someone making an oath she doesn’t understand??? What value do you put in an oath, then? Would you yourself make an oath you wouldn’t really understand?
I’m even more surprised to hear such a statement coming from a commited believer… Swearing wouldn’t be something a (non-casual) christian (I’m assuming you’re a christian) would take lightly, in my experience.
clairobscur, I see young children taking oaths as an extension of the process of brainwashing children to believe in whatever values you wish your children to hold. “Don’t ever lie, Johnny.” “Yes, Mom.” I don’t see anything wrong with parents pushing their children to make a commitment, even though children don’t understand anything… whether it be lying, or never eating meat, or never taking drugs, or no sex till marriage. That’s just part of how society functions and passes its values to the next generation. In fact, baptisms, bat/bar mitzvahs, and other similar ceremonies tend to happen around that age. shrug I’m also an atheist, so I’m not particularly concerned with the “sacredness” of these vows.
DianaG, on the contrary, I was taught that pornography and masturbation were great sins, and I honestly had the impression that only “bad” men did anything of the sort. I was also told that it’d be my job to tell my husband about women’s cycles. Yes, I was that incredibly naive. So, no, it wasn’t a self-fulfilling prophecy, though I’ll admit that perhaps my dating pool was pretty bad. You do make a good point about him being a slut and not me, though; wish you’d been around a few years back.
Mea culpa. Here goes: I’ve heard many of those oaths on the father’s part–if anything, it’s for the father’s benefit rather than the daughter’s. Sure, you have your control freaks–but my dad was definitely not one of them. It’s more of a PromiseKeepers “I will focus on my role as a father and as a husband” commitment. Don’t parse the words too much. There are social issues in fundamentalist circles, and fathers not sticking around is one of them, so in the last 10 years or so there’s been a renewed effort to fight that by affirming roles as a leader of household (and being a good leader means not abusing the role).
Please accept my apologies for my inflammatory remarks, and for such a broad brush. It wasn’t my intention to paint men as “pigs”; rather as the product of the hormones that nature gave them. I don’t think Quagmire types “suck”–they just aren’t my type, and they do make a lot of women happy. Any other argument I make will quickly devolve into the semantics of “love”, but I’ll take back my remark that teenage guys are incapable of feeling love. I was wrong, and I’m sorry.
Fair enough. Like you say, there definetly are men like that, and a considerable amount of teenagers are Quagmire types (extra points for being a Family Guy fan, btw 
). It was just your use of the broad brush that annoyed me; thanks for apologising, and consider yourself forgiven. 
Priest: Who gives this woman in marriage?
Groom: Ha! Who give? Thag take woman! Thumps chest
This here pushes my buttons all kinds of ways. I was raised Christian and sought out confirmation at the age of 9 or 10 because I was so damn convicted of the beliefs that I’d inhaled from birth - church as an infant and infant baptism, sunday school, bible study in the mornings at home, scripture class at school- that I made some heavy vows and committments that I have since had cause to have to break.
Had I been presented with a chastity vow at that age I’d have taken that too. No question. But I would not have been qualified to make that decision. No matter how much I felt that as a 10 year old I was competent to make lifetime commitments that is simply not true. This is why many parishes have a minimum age at which a child can be confirmed.
I don’t think pushing chastity vows on 11 year olds is at all fair to them as reasonable beings who may wish to be responsible for keeping their word but are not yet old enough to fully understand the consequences of the promises that they’re making.
I am an atheist and I don’t see what that’s got to do with not wanting to be pushed into a position that sets me up to be an oathbreaker. Valuing one’s word does not have to be a religious matter!
No offense, but you shouldn’t be beating yourself up over making promises at age 10 you couldn’t keep as an adult.
There’s no question that knowingly making your kids take vows they can’t keep is wrong, but the parents feel that their children are capable of making such pledges, and the children themselves feel the same way, so what do we care? Fact is, you can’t draw a line between “mature enough” and “not mature enough”, particularly when the child may already be struggling with the very same issues at the center of the promise. It’s up to the parent to decide if his/her child is capable of handling the commitment–and none of our businesses.
How old are you, fucking 12? You sound like you’re trying to convince your mom to let you get a tatoo.
I don’t give a shit how the child “feels.” Children are not capable of understanding this kind of decision and that’s all there is to it. We draw “lines of maturity” all the time as to alcohol, driving, voting, and, of course, sex. Anyone who thinks exactly the same way at 20 as they did at 11 has some serious fucking issues.
No it isn’t.
And none of the parents’ business.
DtC…
G’nite.
Note to Self: “Go Advanced” is a very good button.
It’s irrelevant how the children feel. Children are not capable of understanding what they’re committing to.
“God will not take you to task for a slip in your oaths; but he will take you to task for what your hearts have earned; for God is forgiving, forbearing.”
—Qur’an 2:225
…Another night of insomnia. I think I’ll go to the gym after this post.
Which I take it to mean that it’s the child’s business. Correct me if I’m wrong.
What course of action is a parent supposed to take if a child wants to make a commitment? I can understand and agree with the premise that a parent shouldn’t force a child to make a commitment (with a caveat that I won’t cover here), but how do you deal with Suzy saying, “I’m joining the PETA” when you know she just doesn’t want to eat broiled chicken without making it your business?
I’m saying that it’s a decision which can’t be made by anyone while the child is that young. When the girl is old enough, it will be her decision alone. At no time does a parent have any right to make decisions as to what kind of sexual morality their children must adhere to as adults.
The parent should humor the kids’ whims and phases and privately dismiss it all as the immature prattle and identity searching that it is. They don’t have to forbid them from doing it but it’s stupid to formalize it or to appoint oneself as guardian of it and they certainly don’t have a right to coerce it (and I don’t really believe that there isn’t at least some coercion going on with all these girls, however subtle or passive-aggressive it may be. Religious brainwashing in itself is a form of coersion).
I forgot to add that they should also be made to feel that they are allowed to change their minds any time they want. Children have no obligation to honor any vow whatsoever. Vows are for adults and even then I don’t believe any vow is sacred for any longer than a given person feels it is.
Then have a ceremony in which young people of both sexes pledge to try to live as pure a life as possible without going into every possible detail and sin and the parents of both sexes pledge their support and encouragement. That way the CHILD does not have to draw attention to her private parts in public and neither the children nor the parents have to play out the same old stereotypical roles of the 1950’s.
I wish more mothers also would make a big deal about this with their sons.
Pax
God has infinite patience. People on Earth generally don’t, and it’s them that i’m more concerned about (being agnostic, anyway). If I swore an oath in front of people, i’m going to be expected to carry it out. And if I don’t…well, the level of trust i’m going to get has decreased.
Holy jumping messiahs.
You know, I haven’t posted here in so long that I don’t even know how long it has been. I pop back in occasionally to browse, so came across this thread. I read the original link. I read the follow-up links. The whole thing was silly, pompous and overly optimistic to me- then I read that some of the children at this event are as young as four years old.
*FOUR? *
Oh, I’m sure that child knows just why she is there. I’m sure the promise she makes is really meaningful to her. I can just see the conversation:
Daddy: “Hi pumpkin. Would you like to go to a special dance with Daddy?”
Little Girl: “Yes Daddy! Can I wear a princess dress?”
Daddy: “Of course, sweetheart. But you have to promise to stay a virgin until you get married.”
Little Girl: “What’s a virgin?”
Daddy: “That means you can’t let boys touch your private parts (or insert cutesy euphemism of your choice) until you get married.”
Little Girl: “GROSS! Why would I do that?”
Daddy: “That’s my good girl.”
Yup. I’m sure that pledge will be completely heart-felt and meaningful. The child taking the oath absolutely understands all of the implications. Mmmmhmmm…
Of course, some of you are saying that it doesn’t matter if she understands what she is saying. So what is the poor kid- a prop? Just something to show of Daddy’s dominance? “Look what I control! Aaah… I see you have some females that you control too! Good man. Aren’t they cute?”
:rolleyes:
Yep, that’s it exactly. As others have said, this is generally not for the benefit of the children (particularly the very young). It’s play-acting in a new cultural/social ritual. Of course, there is potentially a lot to be said for ritual, even if the meaning is lost on those who are performing it. The implications of this one, however, are just… putting a child’s sex on parade is just upsetting, and I’m a little surprised that this isn’t aparent to those participating. The fascination with the state of young women/girls’ virginity to the extent of ritualizing an event around it is very sexual, and the event becomes a thinly veiled celebration of fertility and male-dominated sexual/power roles.
It’s nice to know that even those who find it sinful in most circumstances can’t break away from their obsession with sex. This is a party about sex, not staying free of sin.
As far as I’m concerned it’s just a dance. The “virginity vow” has the same binding power as a double pinkie swear with a cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die clause. Yeah, the dads in this case are just making their daughters props in proving to others what good parents they are. Have you ever taken your family to the company picnic? Same thing.
Do they discuss your kids sex lives at your company picnic?