Takes note that everything Euphonious Polemic cites in the future is perfect. :dubious:
So you got something to add to the subject or are you just driving by because this isn’t “Great place to Snipe”?
Let’s try some reading comprehension.
Only 25% was right, relative to organisations that are actually Islamist.
Got that? Should I repeat it? You got 25% right. A big fat failing grade. 75% wrong. No “might be” - WRONG. 25% of your list involved fucking Christian led organisations (funny the same percent as actual Islamist organisations), (although without doubt those organisations had (have) Muslims in them) that’s how fucking stupid it was, that list. (And I add it wasn’t even that hard to realise, I remembered it because of Monty bloody Python…)
And the fact you grabbed it willy nilly from another site merely highlights the bankruptcy of your entire line of argument and reasoning.
A sort of, for Americans this works, One Drop Rule. One Muslim makes it Islamic Terrorism, oh No!!!
Jaysus. No, I did not counter with Basques. I used the ETA as an EXAMPLE of how applying such piss poor logic and sloppy thinking would work.
This was to highlight how using the the same standards that would lead to including all those Palestinian groups as Islamist would lead one to have to call the ETA Catholic. Mind you I have repeatedly called said standards bigoted, blinkered, and I can add ignorant, and stupid. That should have underlined
You apparently have been unable to grasp the point. I also point out that I find an excuse of copying a list (one can imagine the kind of site, a hate site in the end…) weak, as you all on your own listed Somali pirates as examples of Islamist terrorism (laughable as that was), which fairly tells me said standards are effectively your own.
Quite the contrary, but you are the person unable to reason your way through illustrative examples, that is clear.
My examples were intended to highlight the stupidity of said lists (and provide the proper contrast of using a clear standard, and a fair one. If one gets to label anything a Muslim has touched as Islamist Terrorism, the label has to be applied in the same way to others, Christian or whatever. Now of course once we get away from the target of blind and ignorant bigotry, said labelling becomes clearly absurd. That was and has been my point all along.
Senor Beef above had a perfectly fine and rational comment on a starting point for judging such things, but some people prefer other ways of thinking.
As I said before:
I suppose I should have highlighted that it was Christian Arab socialists that got ethnically painted into Islamists…
Good lord.
In eight years of reading the SDMB, I don’t think I’ve ever, ever seen anyone get so profoundly and severely bitch-slapped by their own freaking argument as Magiver has. Priceless!
(And in the interest of fighting ignorance, in a very condescending manner, rather than try to bail the sinking ship of your argument with a seive, I suggest you go off for a little while and think about what just happened, and how your own prejudices might just have got a teensy weensy little bit in front of the actual facts.)
FWIW, I think the father’s choice of words is both a little bit accurate and somewhat prejudiced, but I support his right to put what he wants on the plaque.
He has no such right. For like the thirteenth time in this thread, it’s a plaque that was going to go in city hall.
If this were a matter of whether he has a right to put a plaque of poor taste in front of his house, and not in a public building, then there’d be no debate that he has such a right.
Quite, a government paid-for plaque should not engage in broad-brush ethnic/religious characterisations. Not that my opinion has any weight on this matter, but it would seem not tasteful (a note above citing the idea of a plaque re ‘sneaky Japs’ re USA & WWII comes to mind) but not objectionable to have a plaque saying “murdered by Al Qaeda terrorists.”
That would say what he wants, effectively, without the clearly bigoted over-reaching a la the kind of list discussed above. No quibbling about danger or whether they are really terrorists, and focuses on the real, core people.
Cite. The the best you can do here is say that marxists were driving these groups.
**Cite???
Cite???**
What the fuck do you need? All the organisation splinter Popular Front of Judea’s Splitters etc were founded on Marxist principals and were aligned with the Sovs over the years. Two were lead by goddamned Christians for fuck’s sake.
***You give me a fucking cite ***as to why The Muslim One Drop Rule applies to them and not to any given bloody Christian associated group, other than we happen to have some Muslims involved.
Well, in any case, I rest my case, our dear Magiver shows that there is no light between him and the people who generated that bigoted list he cited.
While we’re waiting for Magiver to remember the First Law of Holes, I’ll help out by supplying some of the requested documentation about the Christian leadership of the Christian-led groups that Magiver called “Islamic terrorist groups”.
All of it was material that Magiver could perfectly well have found for himself just by googling the names of the relevant organizations, but I think he’s using “Cite” here in the sense of “La la la la I can’t heeeear you!”
Senor Beef’s statement is accurate but also non-committal. Many of the organizations listed as terrorist groups have a political face to hide behind but when it comes down to acts of terrorism it is the face of Islamic extremism that produces the martyr. It is one thing to fight for a Palestine the state, it is another to deliberately attack innocent civilians in the process.
Beyond Palestinian groups there is a world wide phenomena of independent terrorist acts with a single theme that unites them and that is Islamic extremism.
Compare the wiki pages on Islamic Terrorism and Christian Terrorismand you see the vast difference in scope and size between the two.
Examples of Islamic terrorist acts from the Wiki site:
**26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing, New York City. 6 killed.
13 March 1993 - 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. The single-day attacks resulted in over 250 civilian fatalities and 700 injuries.
24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
14 February 1998. The 1998 Coimbatore bombings occurred in the city of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 46 people were killed and over 200 were injured in 13 bomb attacks within a 12 km radius.
7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
12 October 2000 - Attack on the USS cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
11 September 2001 - 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[126]
13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India’s parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[127][128]
12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.[129]
16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[130][131]
2 November 2004 - Ritual murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.
4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[132]
9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[133][134] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[135]
7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Taiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[136] Uttar Pradesh government officials.
11 July 2006. Mumbai, India. 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings were a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai (formerly known as Bombay). 209 people lost their lives and over 700 were injured in the attacks.
13 May 2008. Jaipur, India. Pakistan-based Islamic militants detonate around 7 bombs within 12 minutes, leaving over 60 dead and numerous injured.
26 July 2008. Ahmedabad, India. Islamic militants detonate at least 16 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 49 dead and 160 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence[137]. Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of militants suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India[138].
13 September 2008. Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 2 people dead.
26 November 2008. Mumbai, India. Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India’s largest city and financial capital. A group calling itself the Deccan Mujaheddin claims responsibility, however, the government of India suspects Islamic militants based in Pakistan are responsible. Ajmal Kasab, one of the militants, was caught alive.[139][140] **
So, in short, Magiver, who is unable to distinguish between Christian and Muslim Ayrabs, believes in a super-secret Spidey Sense to identify the Real Reason™ behind violence in which Muslims (or people he thinks are Muslims) are involved.
This is of course merely religious bigotry of the rankest order, and precisely what I have been objecting to. It is also the sort of grossly irrational and illogical approach that led to the copy pasting of a Palestinian orgs list as Islamic Extremists when a quarter were not even led as such by Muslims, and 75% were/are secular - indeed most were hard-line secular.
But the magic of religious bigotry allows one to wave this away and identify “Real Reasons.”
Uh, yeah. And?
Nothing in our increasingly surreal conversation has been about claiming attacks on civilians are right, pardonable, or otherwise good and fine.
Nor that Religious versus Secular motivations are better (or worse).
My one and sole point has been the gross hypocrisy of willy nilly labelling one act using one line of reasoning, and for a similar coming from one’s own co-religionist (or at least from culturally familiar source), one parses it all away using entirely different standards.
In short, you have literally understood nothing of this conversation.
Islamic Extremism following you means: Any Muslims involved in some fashion, ‘real reasons detected via Super Duper Real Reason for Muslims Sense.’
Christian Extremism means carefully parse away… not really Christian after all, actually nationalist, or etc…
The lists merely illustrate my argument.
And you literally understood nothing of what I said.
You act as if there isn’t a collective theme of terrorism based on the religion of Islam, not by Muslims in a civil war, but by extremist Muslims who use the religion as a base of action. There is nothing comparable to this worldwide phenomenon in other religions. I posted 2 cites on religious terrorism as a contrast to illustrate the differences between Islamic based terrorist acts and Christian terrorist acts.
Hitler wasn’t inspired by his “religion”…in fact he despised organized religion. He was a social Darwinist amonst other things. The SS tombstones even had pagan German symbols instead of crosses.
Hitler went to mass as a kid once or twice. That makes him a “Christian” just like OBL is a “Muslim”. It’s nuts.
OBL is a Muslim fanatic or at least considers himself such. He draws his inspiration from his religion, whether you like it or not. Hitler didn’t draw any inspiration from the Christian religion.
Your list of 28 incidents in the past 17 years, 26 of which occurred within the past 10 years, seems to bear out wmfellows’ remark:
No, contrary to your defensive backpedaling, nobody here actually is denying that Islamist extremist terrorism is a significant and in some ways unique phenomenon. But that doesn’t justify you in trying to amp up the numbers by lumping together every vaguely Middle Eastern terror group you can find into the extremely broad category “Muslim terrorists”.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm Baloney. Hitler quoted bible passages and described himself as doing gods work. He may have had a twisted message but so do our righties. But he knew his religion and teachings.
OK, for my first serious reply in this thread:
Let us make two completely wildly inaccurate suppositions.
- All terrorist attacks in the world have been perpetuated by Muslims
- All Muslims in the world are terrorists
Even if I were grant you both arguments were true, guess what? It makes no friggin different whatsoever. None. It is all 100% irrlevant to the topic at hand. The issue is not the “murdered by muslim terrorists” screed. That’s just a red herring.
The issue here is whether the government has the right to tell a citizen it cannot use a plaque paid for by the government and placed inside a governmental entitiy to write a message that the government disapproves of.
The answer is yes. Legally it does. Morally it does. Ethically it does. The father has absolutely no right to place that message and anything else you guys wank off about is completely beside the point.
Magiver’s posts have invariably reminded of this great old scene.
No I understand all too well.
You see anything with a Muslim involved as inherently tied to the religion itself. Thus you cited some rag-tag Somali pirates in your first post.
That bit if religious bigotry is all to evident.
Not at all, I keep drawing attention back to the real problem, Al Qaeda and its ilk.
At no point have I argued there is no such thing as Islamic terrorism. Not once.
At this moment, perhaps not. The other world religion is Christianity, which happens to be the religion of the Great Powers, USA and the former colonial powers.
That would tend to have an effect relative to the 3rd world - the Christian countries at the bottom are rather less likely to see religion as a driving force, versus say “capitalism.”
(And yes, the Hindus have engaged in terror violence against Christians, you simply don’t hear about it)
You posted two incoherent lists from wikipedia that suffer from precisely the problem I have been pointing to throughout this thread, incoherent definitions, hodge podge of things that are local and have fuck all to do with religion as such, and the real deal - Al Qaeda and similar transnational ideologues.
Your posts from the start showed zero ability to distinguish at any level.
The correct figure is 22 in the past 10 years; apologies to all for the typo.