Fathers of daughters: Do you think all men are scum till proven otherwise?

[catsix]

Shodan said:
No, see, that’s the problem. I’m nothing like your father, and (therefore, at least in part) you are nothing like my daughter.

No you’re right, because I never did tolerate any sort of macho posturing from my dad.

You’ve never had a healthy role model. That’s why you are reacting as if it were your father posting.

He was a good role model in a lot of ways. That just wasn’t one of them.

That’s why you keep mentioning my daughter’s vagina. You are trying to get me to react the way he did, by being shocking. But that doesn’t resonate with me, just like the fact that I can love and care for my daughter without feeling like I own her doesn’t resonate with you. You don’t ‘get’ it, like I said.

I’m trying to figure out what exactly it is that you think you’re protecting with your overly firm handshakes. Are you afraid he’s going to hit her? Make her cry? Pull her hair? Destroy her reputation? Girls are more likely to do those things than boys are, but I don’t see you offering her any protection from her female friends.

Why is it so different with a boy who wants to date her than anyone else? Why is this over protection limited only to those relationships in which the possibility of sex exists?

[Strassia]

@Shodan

No, see, that’s the problem. I’m nothing like your father, and (therefore, at least in part) you are nothing like my daughter.

You’ve never had a healthy role model. That’s why you are reacting as if it were your father posting.

That’s why you keep mentioning my daughter’s vagina. You are trying to get me to react the way he did, by being shocking. But that doesn’t resonate with me, just like the fact that I can love and care for my daughter without feeling like I own her doesn’t resonate with you. You don’t ‘get’ it, like I said.

It’s sort of like how we all could tell Strassia has no daughters without being told. The fact that you can’t empathize with something shows that you likely never experienced it. That’s probably why he is trying to force my posts into the kind of narrowly false dilemmas catsix has already failed with. It’s one way of dealing with an emotional blind spot.

It’s too bad, but the loss is yours.

Regards,
Shodan

Right because I don’t have three younger sisters I helped raise, or two nieces I have doted on for years. No, it is that special father daughter bond that means that I must let every other male know that they can only have her by going through me.
I don’t know you or your daughter. I hope you have a great relationship and that she is a happy and well adjusted person. But, what happens if you get hit by a car tomorrow and end up in a wheel chair? Are you going to forbid her to date? Will she be easy prey for all those wicked men out to get her? Will you be helpless to assist her in any way? Because if she is just as safe and just as protected with you in wheel chair, then the posturing isn’t really for her it all.

On edit:

Come on - you aren’t really that stupid, are you?

But are you joking about the firm handshake and intimidating look? That seems to be what **catsix **is referring to.
Jonathan

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@palacheck

Yeah we know the hierarchy-dominance crap is silly and blah blah blah. Continue discussing it with your Feminist Studies professor and leave the thread alone.

The thread you knew is dead, Xander. What we have here is the vampire its corpse became. Though it looks the same, it lacks a human soul. It is an undead thing–a demon who exists only to kill.

[QUOTE=catsix]

Because obviously I must be some teenage women’s studies major.

You couldn’t be further from the facts there, bud.
[/QUOTE]

He was speaking ironically. Or perhaps sarcastically. Or maybe sardonically. Something-ically, anyway. I get the sense that you have a dearth of these qualities in your life. If you’d like I can dispatch a copy of Hitch Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy for you to peruse.

[QUOTE=Orual]

Please indicate how we are supposed to tell its a joke. Shodan doesn’t appear to be joking. These creepy fucks aren’t joking.

[/quote]

Um…I hate to criticize a fellow fan of Till We Have Faces, but I can’t see how you’d read Shodans posts as anything other than hyperbole for the sake of humor. This

[QUOTE=Shhodan]
"Listen, son - I ws young once, I know exactly what you are thinking, and it’s not going to happen.

Remember something else - you are a teen-age boy. If I kill you, nobody will miss you.

Have a nice time. Curfew is eleven. You have ten fingers and two testicles. That gives you twelve minutes leeway. Don’t use it all up at once."
[/QUOTE]

is different only in degree than my old posts threatening people with flying monkeys and whatnot. Only a torturous misreading can make it different in kind.

[QUOTE=Orual]

catsix does seem to be fixating on the vagina thing, but I can see why she is. The attitude that your kid a some kind of prize you have to keep away from the invading Mongol hordes does have that implication.
[/QUOTE]

Since the thread seems doomed to be serious…

I don’t have a daughter, but I have a niece and a sort-of-stepdaughter I am probably over-protective about. But I don’t think of either of them as property, and the main thing I worry about is that they’re too submissive; I’d be happier if both of them would learn to be about 25% bitchier regarding the world in general and men in particular.

We worry about our daughters, wives, sisters, nieces, and girlfriends not because we think they’re property, but because women are, in general, smaller and weaker than men. We don’t really think that every man out there is a an abuser or a rapist. We worry that we can’t necessarily distinguish the knights from the ceorls; because we hear a small minority of guys talk about women in very distressing ways when there are no women around and then observe them acting in very different ways in the company of women, and suspect the bluster-in-the-company-of-males-only may become violence-when-alone-with-one-woman. That’s not ownership; it’s concern born of affection.

I’ll grant you that the guys who do purity balls are touched, though. Touched in a very bad way.

[Jack_Batty]

@Orual

Please indicate how we are supposed to tell its a joke. Shodan doesn’t appear to be joking. These creepy fucks aren’t joking.

Let’s step back for two seconds.

This thread started with a lighthearted little, lets goof on the dads of daughters, motif. There was hyperbole and yucks all centered around the stereotype of the overprtective dad. Ha ha. It is to laugh. Golly gee, the little kernals of truth uncovered by the jocularity really do make one think, no? Hardy-har-har.
How the fuck did we get from that to unbridled vagina hoarding and religious purity balls?

Honest to Buddha. If you really can’t see the humor in the hyberbole, then your sense of humor has my condolences.

[catsix]

Skald the Rhymer said:
We worry that we can’t necessarily distinguish the knights from the ceorls; because we hear a small minority of guys talk about women in very distressing ways when there are no women around and then observe them acting in very different ways in the company of women, and suspect the bluster-in-the-company-of-males-only may become violence-when-alone-with-one-woman.

You do realize that a lot of that is just the same bullshit macho posturing crap as ‘I will greet him at the door with a shotgun’, right? And that it’s not up to you to distinguish the ‘knights from the ceorls’ unless you are asked for your opinion.

We worry about our daughters, wives, sisters, nieces, and girlfriends not because we think they’re property, but because women are, in general, smaller and weaker than men.

Have you ever thought that if they want your protection and your help, they can ask for it?

Jack Batty said:
How the fuck did we get from that to unbridled vagina hoarding and religious purity balls?

Because what other basis is there for asking whether fathers assume that all boys are scum?

Honest to Buddha. If you really can’t see the humor in the hyberbole, then your sense of humor has my condolences.

Hypoerbole is a ridiculous exaggeration of a grain of truth. So what’s the grain of truth? That you’re protecting your daughter.

Protecting her from what, exactly?

[Cartooniverse]

@WhyNot

As a mom, I’m concerned for my daughter’s future relations with men, but not nearly as concerned as I am for my son. As a former teenage girl, I know that the girls are just as predatory, and *far *better manipulators. Poor guy doesn’t stand a chance.

This is very interesting. I’ve got one of each. The son suffered manipulation / heartbreak / cruelty years ago and to this day ( age 18.5 ) has had no girlfriend and has disdain for girls ever since. Working on that, though. I mean, therapists, etc.

Daughter is 17. Thinks almost all boys are boys and not young men, therefore not worthy of the hassle. Most of her girlfriends have boyfriends or have had. So, she’s heard second-hand about all that goes with having a boyfriend. I think she’s fairly disinterested in it at this point. Pretty far from “boy-crazy” or “girl-crazy”.

They will each find their own way. I’ve spent time over the years, when appropriate, with each of them talking about respect, and self-respect. What is really important, etc.

Cartooniverse

[Shodan]

@catsix

Why is this over protection limited only to those relationships in which the possibility of sex exists?

What over protection are you talking about?

This is an example of what I meant - meeting your daughter’s friends, and making it clear that I am an active presence in her life, and that her well-being is important to me, sounds like over protection to you, and triggers a lot of foolishness about vagina ownership.

People who are emotionally stunted, and are apparently unable to empathize with normal relationships, sometimes project. Sux, but what can you do?

Fortunately, my daughter will never know what that feels like.

@Strassia

No, it is that special father daughter bond that means that I must let every other male know that they can only have her by going through me.

Again, this is exactly the sort of thing I meant. If you had children, and you had a normal relationship with them - “normal” in the sense of “healthy” - you would understand that your idea that ‘you can only have her if you go thru me’ is something that you just made up. No normal father thinks in those terms. And no boy worthy of dating my daughter thinks that way either.

I doubt I can prove it to you. I already explained it, and it didn’t seem to register. Like I say, it sux, but it is difficult for people to understand something which they have not experienced.

Regards,
Shodan

[Miller]

@Scumpup

Guess what? I bet you really could unload a truckload of dead babies with a pitchfork.

Not really. They tend to get stuck on the tines.

[Jack_Batty]

I can’t take it anymore.
Fine. I admit it, CatSix. I will not be happy until I have my daughter’s vagina locked in a safe in my trophy room.
Happy now?

[catsix]

Shodan said:
This is an example of what I meant - meeting your daughter’s friends, and making it clear that I am an active presence in her life, and that her well-being is important to me, sounds like over protection to you, and triggers a lot of foolishness about vagina ownership.

How many of the girls got the over-firm handshake?

People who are emotionally stunted, and are apparently unable to empathize with normal relationships, sometimes project. Sux, but what can you do?

I didn’t invent your statements that you use your physically imposing presence and your over-firm handshake to intimidate the boys.

Fortunately, my daughter will never know what that feels like.

Right, because you’re sure she tells you everything. You’re absolutely sure.

No normal father thinks in those terms. And no boy worthy of dating my daughter thinks that way either.

Then what do you think? What are you protecting?

Like I say, it sux, but it is difficult for people to understand something which they have not experienced.

I suppose I will never understand the appeal of showing what a big tough guy I am by squeezing the hand of a teenage boy until it hurts.

Jack Batty said:
Fine. I admit it, CatSix. I will not be happy until I have my daughter’s vagina locked in a safe in my trophy room.

Why not just tell me what it is that you are trying to protect? It should be easy.

[wring]

@Jack_Batty

I can’t take it anymore.
Fine. I admit it, CatSix. I will not be happy until I have my daughter’s vagina locked in a safe in my trophy room.
Happy now?

now that’s just sick

You have to bronze it first.

[Scumpup]

@Miller

Not really. They tend to get stuck on the tines.

You’re not putting your back into it, pencil-neck.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@catsix

You do realize that a lot of that is just the same bullshit macho posturing crap as ‘I will greet him at the door with a shotgun’, right? And that it’s not up to you to distinguish the ‘knights from the ceorls’ unless you are asked for your opinion.

catsix, I wrote nothing that can be construed as macho bullshit. I have not threatened violence against anyone, nor have I said that violence against men or boys on behalf of the women in my life is justified regardless of the women’s opinion or requests. Let’s look at what I did write:

[QUOTE=that dude who used to make jokes about being a super-villain and wanting to enslave Campbell Brown, and then got bored with it, and now amuses himself by inserting ridiculously long attributions in quote tags]

I don’t have a daughter, but I have a niece and a sort-of-stepdaughter I am probably over-protective about. But I don’t think of either of them as property, and the main thing I worry about is that they’re too submissive; I’d be happier if both of them would learn to be about 25% bitchier regarding the world in general and men in particular.
[/QUOTE]

How is wishing that my niece and not-quite-stepdaughter would be more assertive and aggressive “macho bullshit”? I’m quite serious–please EXPLAIN how my wanting the two of them to TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES makes me macho. By that logic, my giving my nieces money to go to the movies makse me a thief.

Have you ever thought that if they want your protection and your help, they can ask for it?

I wrote nothing saying that I proffer assistance unasked. If you feel I am lying, please point to a specific instance. Shouldn’t be hard.

Because what other basis is there for asking whether fathers assume that all boys are scum?

Signora, IT WAS A JOKE! Oakminster (whose clearly a smarter man than I, given his absence from this silly debate) made a comment I thought joke-worthy. I opened a thread in either IMHO or MPSIMS commenting on on, and Czarcasm, for reasons that escape me, chose to move the thread here, where it has mutated into this lumbering monstrosity.
And my saying that some men behave differently when only men are present is true. I once posted a thread about a neighbor of mine who opined that women are best sorted into the categories of “rapable” and “not-rapable.” He was an extreme example, but guys hear this kind of crap from other guys all the time, and we see the perpetrators sometimes act quite nicely when women are present. This worries us, and maybe frustrates us,because we know that, while most men find rape unthinkable and horrifying, there are a few who find it exciting to contemplate, and it’s hard to distinguish one from the other somtimes.

But you are determined to be offended. You are looking for reasons to be offended. You seem incapable of realizing, as Whynot did upthread, that perhaps a cigar is merely a cigar, and your thinking it’s a rattlesnake is indicative of some issue you yourself are having.

I’ll thank you not to accuse me of being a macho bullshitter. I do many varieties of bullshit, but not that kind.

[Scumpup]

Catsix’s possession of a vagina is her qualification for telling those of us who have daughters everything we are doing wrong in raising and protecting our children.
In addition to my own biological daughter, age 8, I have two stepchildren_ one of each sex_who are in their late teens. I am protective of them as well. I never considered myself as owning his penis or her vagina.
In addition to having kids, I’ve been teaching for nearly 25 years. I’ve been around a lot of kids. More than most people. More than catsix or strassia, I’ll warrant. Teens are impulsive. Teens routinely do stupid things that, in retrospect, they will admit were stupid.
It absolutely does no harm for a child or a teen to have a strong protective adult presence (note, vagina-equipped readers, that I didn’t say male) who stands ready and for the associates of that child/teen to know that as well.
It’s getting kind of funny now. Catsix figures possession of a vagina qualifies her to tell us how to raise our daughters. Strassia has sisters so he feels qualified to do the same…and 5-HT is just a skeevey asshole.

[Scumpup]

@5-HT

I just don’t trust creepy fucks like you. I’m probably just being overcautious, but people with your mindset cross the line frequently enough that you just can’t be too careful.

Hmmm. I’ve said that I am protective of my 8 year old daughter and you think that means you need a gun. One of us is creepy, all right.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

catsix, upon re-reading your earlier post, I have decided that I misinterpreted you; you seem to be accusing the men who speak ill of women of being macho bullshitters rather than me. I apologize for mis-interpreting you; you did not accuse me of being a macho bullshitter

That said, please examine this thread from August 2006 and this one from last August. You’ll see why I am something less than trusting of some men.

[cowgirl]

@Shodan

You remember what I said earlier about daughters who don’t know what a normal relationship with their father is like? Those people are people whose advice on what I should be doing is easy to dismiss.

That’s one of the worst harms a dysfunctional father does - his children often don’t ‘get’ what normal is like.

Data point: My father is a great father and I believe that I have a normal relationship with him (depending on what measure you use, of course). One of the best things he did for me was to teach me to trust my own judgment without relying on some man (whether him or a boyfriend) to back me up.

It’s entirely possible that he did joke (among his friends) the way many of you are doing here, but he did my sister and I the enormous favour of never letting us see that. If he had shown any interest in intimidating any guys I brought home, my response would have been to stop bringing anyone home.

I respect and appreciate your relationship with your daughters, I really do. But please keep in mind that if she ever does have this experience (of not liking you intimidating her guy-friends - and remember, if she feels you’re deliberately intimidating her guy friends, it doesn’t matter what your intention is), she is far more likely to sneak around than she is to ask you to knock it off.

I am perfectly capable both of trusting my daughter to speak up if she feels the need, and to make it clear that if she does feel she is being mistreated, there is someone who is willing - nay, eager - to do whatever is necessary to make sure that said mistreatment ends.

Just be aware that this may have the opposite of the intended effects. As I say, my dad was a great dad to teenage girls (and remains a great dad to adult women), but I never would have considered asking for him for help in such circumstances, and if he had offered it (under ANY circumstances) I would have been extremely weirded out, and would have taken measures to avoid such assistance (i.e. I’d stop bringing guys home and I’d never talk about them to my folks).

Because he taught me to know my own boundaries and stand up for them. I’m 100% with the [irony]feminist[/irony] catsix here, even tho it seems our fathers took opposite approaches. Are you going to call me emotionally stunted and unable to empathize with normal relationships?

Add me to the list of those who would like to know, if it’s not about her vagina, what exactly it is that you are protecting your daughter from. Also, is it only potential suitors who get this treatment (as opposed to girlfriends from the school volleyball team), and if so, why?

[Malienation]

Deja vue all over again. In a similar thread, I argued:

@Malienation

Jesus, man, how the fuck did all these alleged “tough guys” get to view their pathetic routines as okay? How’d being petrified of their daughter’s sexuality get construed as helpful, somehow?

Pussies.

I dated a the same girl in high school for most of my years there in the 70’s. She was the youngest of 3 kids by a long shot. Not only was her oldest brother a cop (he was 30), her dad was an experience police detective. Him, he had brains. He treated me right, like a man. I wasn’t , of course, but he made me feel like I was. I was already inclined to treat her right, but that’s not the point. He made me feel even more inclined to do so.

Yes, I was having safe (unusual back then) sex with her…and I treated her right while doing so. I cared for both her pleasure and her heart. Intimidation never would have helped dissuade us; that whole threatening thing is bullshit. He knew that. It works for 5 minutes, then the hormones make you forget it all. He knew that too. And even if it did work, it would scare off the nice guys…again and again. Eventually, a seriously tough guy, someone well versed in violence but charming enough to attract his daughter, wouldn’t run. He knew that as well…and knew he didn’t want that sort of guy for his daughter. Is that what you guys want your daughter to settle for? Where will you be then?

[Scumpup]

@Malienation

Deja vue all over again. In a similar thread, I argued:

You just wanted to brag about the last time you got laid.

Further, you can add your name to the list of people who can’t tell the difference between hyperbole and reality.

[cowgirl]

@Scumpup

Further, you can add your name to the list of people who can’t tell the difference between hyperbole and reality.

Those of you without daughters can make all the jokes you want.

But for those of you with daughters who do make such jokes in their presence, you are gambling that your daughter will precisely share your view of humour, hyperbole and reality in this context.

Are the jokes really so hilarious that they’re worth risking your daughter’s respect and trust?