[Mod Hat: ON]
This is a continuation of the discussion going on in:
FEAR ME: I’m a Jew! or sigh WB strikes again
which was closed due to the length of the thread.
[Mod Hat: OFF]
I guess I’m late to the “portajon is a fruit-loop” party, but he also spammed me. Yay. What a fuckin’ loon.
FENRIS –
With all due respect, FEN, you have no more right to tell a Christian what his religion means that I have to tell a Jew what his religion means.
Christians worship one God, and affirmatively deny the existence of any other gods. To imply that we are polytheistic is pretty close to insulting, even if no insult was meant, and I realize none was.
POLY seems to have explicated the Trinity better than I ever could, but allow me to reiterate that, as a Christian, I do worship the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, and the God of Elijah. I also worship the God of Muhammad and the God of the Twelve Disciples. That God. The One God. The only God there is. I affirmatively disavow the existence of any other god. This is the first basis of my faith, just as it is of yours.
I think the best thread on the Trinity is this one, though you will see that as is usual with relgious threads, light was shed but no minds were changed.
Jodi (and any other Christians), I apologize. My understanding of what the Trinity was was obviously incorrect. No offense was meant at all. I really did think that the standard Christian doctrine was that there was a Jesus-God, a Father-God and a Holy Spirit-God, seperate and distinct…but they were somehow still all the same person (? It never made sense to me either). The way Poly explained it, that’s obviously not even close to the case.
This is what I get for listening to bad Christian talk-radio. If I promise to re-read the Narnia series, the Perelanda series, The Great Divorce (maybe Lewis’s best) AND The Screwtape Letters, can I be forgiven? 
What if I throw in some George McDonald?
:eek: or will I have to read the turgid Left Behind stuff to atone?! 
Fenris
Sorry Fenris, but its for your own good…Left Behind it is. We will expect a book report on it by Wed. And we will check it against the cliff notes, so no cheating.
OK, sorry. I’m late. Can someone give me a brief summary?
Or does “Wildest Bill said some dumb shit about a religion other than his own again” cover it?
Oh, and to those doubting the trolliness of portajon, one should read his responses to me in the Does HIV cause AIDS? thread.
Here’s the short version:
me: HIV does cause AIDS
him: Some people say that you can’t isolate it.
me: You can isolate it (cite).
andros: Put up or shut up.
him: OK, here is some hastily copied text from an HIV denier website.
me: more cites, virus culture is done all the time – that is basically isolation for all intents and purposes.
him: no it isn’t.
me: yes it is, here I will debunk one of the websites you copied.
him: no it isn’t. Why should I believe you if I don’t know your credentials?
Anyway, it was mildly aggravating, although a good medical school review for me. I’m glad that he is gone, though.
BTW, I am an agnostic Jew type who is doubly glad to see him gone after a few hit-and-run posts in Israel/Palestine threads in GD.
Fenris, if you plan to do some reading, let me just recommend, from e-Jew to r-Jew, you try the New Testament. The stories aren’t as juicy as the Old Testament, but there is a nice ending, and the characters are described in wonderful detail!
[sub](I fully realize Fenris has possibly studied the NewT in great detail, and do not mean in any way, shape or form to insult Fenris. Dang. The disclaimers are getting longer than the posts…)[/sub]
Not all Christians agree on the Trinity concept. I, for example, believe that there is only one God, who was incarnate as Jesus and touches people as the holy spirit.
To me the Trinity concept is somewhat overwrought, it would be kinda like saying that the Jews believe the God as Burning Bush, Pillar of Fire by night and Pillar of Cloud by day, disembodied voice to Abraham and Jacob, and presence in the Ark, etc.
One God,
One love.
Dammit, I DO count! He DID e-mail me.
Now it’s scary. Mods, hold me!
[sub]seriously, I blocked the guy’s address. Should I forward it to a mod? It kinda scared me…it wasn’t nasty, but pretty paranoid[/sub]
Yes Guin, you probably should. John requested in the closed precursor to this thread that you forward it to him, minus the text, which we all got.
He also spammed an apology. Something about Zulus. It was even more bizarre and paraniod than the first e-mail.
I’ll do it first thing in the morning-I’m so tired…can’t keep my eyes ope-…zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Right the first time.
I don’t quite understand the touching faith that some apparently have, that it’s possible in any way that he’ll start thinking. How many times is this now? But, more power to 'em.
Fenris,
Thanks for your explanation concerning your apprehension about people presenting themselves as Jews for sinister purposes. I was aware of the existence of intellectually-challenged Baptists who wished to convert Jews to Christianity, but I had not heard of the “Jews for Jesus” group. A dear friend of mine used to remark “those idiots want to convert Jews to Christianity when, in fact, they are worshiping a Jew [Jesus]”. I had no idea that a claim to be Jewish could be a form of anti-semitism.
Well to be fair Fenris some Christians do believe God to be exactly the way you described Him. Some believe Poly’s explanation. Some believe entirely different things. And we as a group have been arguing about it since the first century. There really is not a more fundamental or long lasting arguement among Christians than the nature of God and Jesus. In fact given that the idea that Christ was a man of a non-Divine nature (as you stated the Jewish messiah will be) was professed very early (Arianism), and is still believed by some modern groups (Jehovah’s Witnesses for one), while many (most?) others agree that he was Divine, I think we can forgive you for not getting all the nuances right.
I have personally spent a good part of the last year reading on historical heresey and I still have hard time getting my mind wrapped around some of the ideas.
I thought that to be considered a Christian, one had to accept the fact that Jesus was the Son of God and, as such, divine. Also, I have only heard Christians refer to the Trinity in the context of “One God, Indivisible”. Fortunately, I have also heard Christian theologians say that the concept of “Trinity” is incomprehensible to mortals, which I have always thought was very considerate of them. I imagine the idea is that God can be in many places at once without becoming separate entities.
Special to Coldy.
** A Thread Symphony in 5 Pages, by Jonathan Chance**
Page 1: The symphony opens with a link to the Is there any evidence to back the bible? thread. Jonathan Chance OPines, “Wildest Bill promulgates some more crap-ass predjudiced beliefs about Jews.”
Discussion ensues. Theme A. Resolved: A seeming compliment can actually be an insult.
Theme B. Resolved: Stereotypes are bad.
Alessan admits that he has the phrase “FEAR ME: I’m a Jew!” tattooed on his penis. The news seems to surprise no one.
As Page 1 comes to a quiet close, there are three solos in the woodwinds. Captain Amazing requests, “Let’s not get into the whole Judaism: race or religion debate, again, please. It’s already been been hashed out.” Monty adds, “And we certainly don’t want to get into Israel’s whole “Who is a Jew?” question, I bet.” LaurAnge chimes in, “I would agree about trying not to get into the religion/race debate again.”
Page 2, opens immediately with a discussion of “What is a Jew?”, with Fenris as Concertmaster.
MsRobyn has a bacon cheeseburger for dinner. The significance of this is not clear–is she Jewish or isn’t she?
Portajon enters the discussion. He remarks:
Flyswatters are produced, and the discussion continues.
At intervals Portajon contributes such gnomic utterances as:
Cans of Raid[sup]R[/sup] Flying Insect Killer are produced, and the discussion continues.
Wildest Bill finally enters his flame thread, but no one responds to him, as they are too busy debating, “What is a Jew?” Page 2 closes with a few soft chords from Andros.
Page 3 opens with a bang, making good use of the percussion section, as Gobear takes on Wildest Bill’s remarks about Jews cited in the OP.
WB responds by telling him he took his remarks out of context, and attempts to change the subject by asking Polycarp, “Would you please step in here and tell me if I am out line with the Jews being God’s chosen people the Gentiles being second according to the Bible? I don’t think I am though.”
As Polycarp is nowhere in sight, the discussion merely takes a small detour onto the sidebar of “WB’s intelligence” (Resolved: It is non-existent), until WB says:
At which point Fenris introduces a new theme, echoed in the cellos:
Pepperlandgirl closes the page with a wistful oboe solo, backed by the rumble of far-off drums.
The justly famous Page 4 begins with a magnificent crash of chords from the brass, as WB says:
And Fenris responds:
The discussion is hot and heavy. “What is a Jew?”
Guinastasia asks WB, “Why do you post here, anyway?” WB responds, “Maybe it is the same reason I think Satan(Brian) liked posting on the LBMB instead of here - more of a challenge.” He receives an official warning about trolling from Lynn.
Portajon returns sporadically with such fascinating contributions as:
He is finally banned, since, as Lynn says, he seems to be “dedicated to trolling.”
The discussion touches briefly on Wiccan beliefs, before the page closes with puzzled posts from Dopers who have received odd e-mails from the banned Portajon.
Page 5 begins with more discussion of Portajon’s e-mail, before it switches from “What is a Jew?” to “What is the difference between Jews and Christians?” and “Jews For Jesus”.
WB brings up the subject of the Trinity.
After an informative post from Bricker, John Corrado closes the thread.
Personally, I think WB is trolling. His dumb questions and responses appear “calculated” or “contrived” to me. The poor grammar is inconsistent. In my experience, the intellectually challenged or ignorant exhibit some consistentcy in their use of bad grammar. Thus, I cast my vote for WB as “troller”.
Dammit, DDG, I did indeed respond to WB within 24 hours of his request, and participated extensively in the discussion (to the extent appropriate – I do not, so far as I’m aware, have any Jewish ancestry, so discussing what an e-Jew thinks is a Jew was beyond my acceptable repertoire). But I did play my oboe part rather well, in my own humble opinion, and I feel that your review slights my efforts!
Hairy, based on experience of Bill on three boards, I would have to testify that you are wrong. Bill’s heart is in the right place, but he operates on some gross misconceptions.
In a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, it is very important to distinguish honest ignorance from trollery. Bill has, IMHO, a fair amount of the former, and only the slightest touch of the latter – he does love to be controversial, but only in the context of stirring up debate. If he was trolling, than so were Ben, matt_mcl, Esprix, Satan, and Jodi, not to mention David B. something over a year ago. Taking what you know is an unpopular stand – because it is what you sincerely opine – is never trollery.
Bart, my intent was to give what orthodox Trinitarian dogma says, with the slight slant towards the Alexandrine school called for by the “God is one” issue that called for it, not to explore the views of each branch of Christianity. Potter’s Corners Full Gospel Holiness Church and Body Shop, Inc. (there actually is one, according to the sign! :D) probably does not hold to the concept I presented, but that’s their problem.
That’s not true for some denominations. Some denominatins, further, hold that Jesus was both the Son of God and fully human.
Not all Christians follow that line. Some of us hold that the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) is basically a committee.
I never bought that “incomprehensible” line. After all, 'twas a man-made idea.