On page 292 of my paperback copy of the Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo remarks that even while he was fading into the wraith world, nearly overcome by his wound, he saw Glorfindel as “a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others”. This is in the context of Gandalf telling him:
Gandalf also says that Glorfindel is “one of the mighty of the Firstborn . . . an Elf-lord of a house of princes”.
Is this “canonical” proof that the two Glorfindels are one and the same? If not, for example, not only were the Elves reusing names, but two famous and high-born Elvish princes were living in the First Age bearing the same name at the same time.
BTW, where do Elves go when they are [apparently] killed? Back into the West? If so, why do they bother going to the Grey Havens, instead of committing suicide? Well, not really–but is there a difference between returning with or without one’s corporeal abode?
I think combining Arwen and Glorfindel is brilliant. I never would have thought of it, but it makes total sense:
“one of the mighty of the Firstborn . . . an Elf-lord of a house of princes”
That house of princes is Elrond’s house. Arwen is Elrond’s daughter. As an “Elf-[lady] of a house of princes”, there’s no reason she couldn’t be “one of the mighty of the Firstborn.”
Combining characters is a huge part of a book versus a movie; for instance, Shawshank Redemption is one of the best book-to-film transfers I’ve ever seen, and all the wardens and guards are combined into a couple of characters. In the books, they change a lot (which is realistic) with little emphasis and so they become a faceless blur of brutal authority. In a movie, changing faces would be distracting and confusing to the audience, and so a few actors play the same part sthroughout. They doesn’t have very memorable or special faces… so they become a ‘faceless’ blur of authority. Book-to-film is very very hard because you have to find different ways of doing the same things or the effect is lost.
In an epic novel, there are lots and lots of characters. In a movie, people would get confused and you’d have to pay extra actors.
As I understand it, deceased elves go to the Halls of Mandos, aka the Halls of Waiting–which sounds like a cosmic doctor’s office. They hang there for an indeterminate amount of time, before they are released, reincorporated–Feanor may still be chillin’, reading back issues of National Geographic. So there’s an advantage to arriving on a boat, rather than getting zapped to the Halls.
Part of me is glad that several of us agree Glorfindel is the same one as we read about in the Silmarillion, but only part. The other part is quietly bothered by the implication that sailing into the West isn’t the one-way journey that it’s made out to be. Instead of a spectator lobby, it’s a respawn point.
It was only recently that I made the Glorfindel connection, when I was forcing my way through the Silmarillion. Until then, I figured that Glorfindel was a reasonably important and powerful elf lord, but still nobody “special.” Let’s face it: every elf is nobility in these books. We never see Celehomer the elven miller, his wife Vardalene, and their kids Quenyatin and Galadri-Ann, so Glorfindel was the closest to regular elf-folk we ever meet. Even Legolas is a relative of the wood-elf king.
My point is, until I figured this out I thought that Glorfindel was just some guy. Only Gandalf the Maia had returned from death, and that after long trauma and wandering, and for a limited time. The idea that somebody else in LotR had accomplished the same feat cheapens it.
Hey, what about Galion the tipsy butler and the equally soused guards in The Hobbit? I always liked that bit, because it’s the only look in all of Tolkien at elves doing menial jobs, bitching about the boss, and whatnot…
On the other hand, that makes her several thousand years older than Aragorn. And I thought that she would be of the house of Celeborn and Galadriel, and probably quite a bit younger than them? I didn’t have the impression that she had actually lived in the West before crossing over to Middle Earth.
As for run-of-the-mill Elves, I immediately thought of Haldir and his non-Westron speaking brothers Rumil and Orophin. (Well, OK, I did have to go back and look up their names, but I thought of them.) Haldir comes across as a bit of a stuffed shirt, middle manager type afraid of breaking the rules, not noble at all. He seems basically to be a sergeant on border patrol duty. Thanks to him, everyone in the Company had to walk around Lorien blindfolded at first.
I can’t say that I like the casting of Aragorn in this movie. That actor always struck me as being typecast in the shifty, untrustworthy criminal type. Of course, maybe that’s appropriate for the Strider phase of the journey.
Another question for you all: do you think that there will be any effective suspense for anyone who hasn’t read the books? Will they be holding their breaths, wondering who this Strider character is, or be sitting on the edge of their seats as Frodo makes the flight to the Ford?
Well, Sauron was also a Maia, wasn’t he? He returned a number of times, though I don’t know if he went to the same place as Gandalf. I’m not sure whether he had any actual body at the time of the LoTR, however.
That’s not the draw for me at all. Having read the books once a year since I was in seventh grade, surprise is not the issue. I am looking forward to the event of seeing someone bring the story into a new medium, clothing it in flesh, sight, and sound. I am looking forward to seeing what adaptations will be made, and for this reason have stayed far away from any websites that might have such information, but mostly I am looking forward to meeting old friends anew, and delighting in the reacquaintance.
Arwen was born in Third Age 241, presumably in either Rivendell or Lorien, so she is nearly 3000 years old at the time of the WR, but she was never in the West.
As far as Sauron (and Gandalf) being re-incorporated, I always assumed there were different “rules” for Maia vs. Elves. Somewhere in the books it is mentioned that Sauron could no longer take on a pleasing form after one of his reincarnations, which implies that he did have an (ugly) physical body up until the end.
There are also presumably different rules for Good vs. Bad Maia. Someone on the boards recently presented the argument that Gandalf was sent back by Illuvatar himself, not the Valar as I had always assumed. I don’t remeber the details but I remember being convinced (helpful, I know).
This question was on my mind when I downloaded the trailer recently, just to see what it was like, not really expecting anything fantastic. When it finished, I realised that I had not taken a breath since it started, that’s how involved I was. Good cinema will always be gripping, just as a good novel is gripping on the second and third read. I have read LOTR cover to cover half a dozen times and my favorite bits dozens more and heard the BBC radio play at least three times, and the story still grips me and carries me along with it when I start it anew.
I think that a film where you know what is going to happen next can be just as exciting as one where you are kept guessing - in a different way of course!! Just as in a horror movie where you know that something is going to be in the cupboard, it still scares the bejesus out of you when it happens… Or in a slapstick comedy, when you see someone with a cream pie - you know what’s coming next and still laugh when it happens…
Tolkien said in understanding Galdalf’s resurection the key phrase is “out of time.” When Galdalf dies he wanders out of time. The Vala live in time and are bound to the the word until the end. So only Eru-Illuvitar who resides out of time could have sent Gandalf back. For Tolkien this was a very significant moment becasue it is one of a handful of times that he directly intervenes.
As far as other Maia reincarnating, only Sauron is shown to do so. And this appears to be because he is bound to his ring. As long as it exists he cannot be permanently destroyed. Other than Sauron I am aware of no other Maia that is “killed” then returns. They take up corporal forms and let them go at will, but losing the form involunterally seems to result in losing it permanantly.
Did Sauron already have the ring when he was engulfed in the destruction of Numenor? I had the impression that he only made the ring after reincorporating following his “death” in that event.
Nope he had the ring. Tolkien wrote a great line about Sauron’s malignant spirit bearing the ring out of the wreck of Numenor. Unfortunately I can’t find the line at the moment. I think it was in Letters. Anyway here are the dates.
SA 1600 - One Ring forged
SA 1693 to 1700 - Saruon wars with elves, captures other rings. Sauron rules virtually everything East of Misty Mountains
SA 3262 - Reign of Sauron ends. He is captured by Ar-Pharazon
SA 3319 - Destruction of Nemenor
SA 3441 - Last alliance slays Sauron. One ring taken by Isildur
I thought I remembered Sauron taking the ring off and leaving it behind in Barad-Dur when he saw even he was not mighty enough to overcome the Numenorian fleet. I’m not at home right now, so I can’t look it up, but I’m pretty sure. I even remember reading a passage describing his return to the dark tower and donning the ring again. After all, his body was destroyed in the Wreck of Numenor.
BTW, I’m rereading Letters of JRRT right now. I’d forgotten how cool it was. He does an awesome job of summarizing the entire history of middle-earth from Ainulindale to Frodo sailing to the west, all in about 6 pages.
It sounds like he had the ring in Numenor to me. The phrase you have no doubt read is “…took up again his great Ring.” Tolkien used this phrase in both Akallabeth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. However I would contend that such a phrase refers to a return to actively using the ring rather than getting it out the Barad-dur safe.
Firmly neutral. I used to participate over in alt.fan.tolkien and nothing would get people madder at you than an opinion on Balrog wings. My internal vision in my head will always have wings, but I understand when people point out that in every previous draft in which Balrogs appeared they were wingless. Tolkien radically changed his view on Balrogs in his life. They were changed from ‘created’ foot soldiers numbering in the thousands to a half a dozen ‘corrupted’ demons of fire and darkness. Tolkien could have changed his mind and given them wings. But there is no evidence he did so, other than the debated passage. So I personally see them as winged, but agree they probably weren’t.
If you think that 3000 years is icky, chew on this: Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins [sub]about 60 times removed[/sub].
And the balrog debate is an easy one: They had wings of shadow. They weren’t corporeal, but then, a Balrog is inherently a thing of flame and darkness, so they are an integral part of the beast. They clearly didn’t enable flight while the 'rog was in some sense corporeal (else how would it fall to its destruction?), but remember that Balrogs are also of the order of the Maia, and can presumably discorporate. I see no problem with an “unclad” Balrog, of pure flame and darkness, flying on wings of shadow.
As for other Maia reincarnating after death, what others have we ever seen die? Gandalf returns, Sauron returns, and Saruman seems to anticipate returning, before his spirit is dispersed on the wind (intervention by Manwe?)
