I don’t know that we have ever done this one. For any who do not know, female circumcision is the practice of removing the clitoris from a girl, and at times accompanyed by other forms of genital mutilation (read the links). It is widespread in Africa, where it is seen as essential to a girl’s coming of age. Among groups who circumcise, uncircumscised girls do not marry or become part of society in any meaningful way.
Here is a rather lurid article from Atlantic Monthly that talks about the procedure, focusing on its existance in American culture. It is a little out of date–1995–so I don’t know if the legal situation is the same today. Evidently, as of 1995 there was nothing illegal about cutting off your baby’s clitoris with a razor blade. Don’t eat while reading. http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/fgm/fgm.htm
Here is a link to three articles that discuss the issue of how circumsicion operates within African culture rather more objectivly than I could: http://www.ccsu.edu/Afstudy/upd3-2.html
Now, we all more or less agree that tolerance is a Good Thing. But this? As a nation, should we use our leverage as a superpower to encourage governments to outlaw this practice or discourage it through ther means? Should we ignore it as a cultural difference or as merely none of our business?
Furthermore, what about immigrants in America? Should this be legal in the name of cultural diversity? Some of these people truly believe that an uncircumscised girl is unclean, unworthy, degraded. What if the daughter (say 10-15 years old) also wanted the surgery, in fact found the idea of retaining a clitoris repulsive?
I wrestle with this problem, but really have no good answers. I would be interested in seeing some other views.
Well, I think we can all agree that there are some things, that like slavery, may be considered acceptable in certain cultures, but have no place in a modern society. This would be one of them.
Can we go “over there” and tell them to knock it the f____ off? Yes.
Can we enforce it if they don’t? Probably not, as a nation we really do usually try not to be TOO imperialistic.
Can we damn sure make certain that this practice doesn’t somehow make slither on it’s underbelly into America? We can try, but as with many illogical things that people believe in, it may be harder to stamp out than just passing a few laws.
On one hand, I’m mightily appalled by female circumcision, because body mutilation of that sort disgusts me.
On the other hand, when I hear someone talk about body mutilation practices of other nations, I always check to see if the critic has pierced ears.
Yeah, the difference between the two procedures is dramatic, but my point is that just about every culture practices some form of body alteration, whether it be ear piercing, tattooing, neck stretching, foot binding, or female circumcision. As Cecil mentioned in his column, What’s the story with female circumcision?, often women perform the circumcisions, and it’s not unheard of for a girl to request the operation. Who are we to say they are wrong, no matter how insane the practice may seem to us Westerners?
The short of it: we can’t force our morality on other cultures. We can, however, communicate our own practices to them, and hope they see the logic.
I dont want to sound like a jerk here, but ther IS a differance between earings and having your genitals altered.
Neck stretching and foot binding falls into the “almost as bad as genital messing with” catagory.
Think about it, having your ear pierced doesn’t exactly effect your chances of lifing a healthy, happy, “normal” life, where as having your vital organs heavily tampered with at a young age MUST have some sort of detrimental effect on your long term well being, even if it’s someing as simple as the fact that the woman being tortured will never enjoy sex.
food for thought
“Remember, the world is only just becoming literate” -Aldous Huxley
Female genital mutilation (let us call it that, as calling it “circumcision” is sugarcoating it, and will always rile up the "uncut/anti-male C guys<and you DON’Y wanna go THERE> ), is illegal in the US. I believe there was a case where an immigrant also won asylum, based on the fact that she (or was it her daughter?)would be mutilated upon return to africa, thus they had the right to stay.
However, there are a # of muslims who practice “token” female circumcision, by making a small nick in the tissue over the clitoris. I met (and “knew”) such a lady, and her abilities were in no way “damaged”.
So, we should separate “Female Genital Mutilation” from “female circumcision”. The 1st is truely a crime against humanity, and no amount of “multiculteralism” will get you out of that. The 2nd is merely a tradition, that we might find odd, but we should not condemn too harshly.
People should have the right to inflict whatever mutilation of their own body they wish. (Be it earpiercing, breast implants, tatoos, sex change, circumcision, etc), as long as they have legally reached the age to make such decisions on their own.
In no way should a child be subject to such.
I have 2 questions about this.
can the female feel or enjoy intercourse after this?
2)Is the female allowed to say no to this?
My thought here is although it may be a cultural thing I agree that it has no place in american modern society. I have no proof of this but my understanding is that male circucision is done to prevent bacteria and disiese to fester under the foreskin. secondly female circumcision in this thread sounds completly cruel and unusual and serve no real point other than ritualistic.
The female can still have sex, but she won’t have an orgasm. Cutting off a clitoris is the same thing as cutting off a penis–it’s the primary sex organ that gives you an orgasm.
You ask if she can “enjoy” intercourse. Well, lots of women with clitorises have sex without having orgasms, so, you tell me.
No, it’s my understanding that it’s done when the female is still a child, so she can’t say no. Also, there are powerful social incentives to have the procedure done. If all the women in the mother’s peer group, including her own mother, are pressuring her to have this done so her daughter won’t be “different”, then she’s much more likely to have it done to her daughter.
It is somewhat similar to the social pressure to have a boy baby circumcised. However, male circumcision doesn’t remove the boy’s ability to have an orgasm. Female “circumcision” leaves her with only a vagina.
I don’t think the U. S. of A. ought to be the world’s policeman anyway, so I would have to say that no, we shouldn’t butt in over in Africa and Asia. However, I think it’s a different kettle of fish if they want to come over here and do it. Our legal system protects children from other forms of serious mutilation (and let’s not get sidetracked by comparing ear piercing to cutting off a child’s penis or clitoris!).
The whole custom of clitoridectomy arose out of the male Establishment’s need to control women’s sexuality (if I may descend to “Feminazi” hyperbole for a moment! )
Now that we all live in a culture that no longer has this compelling need (at least, we’re working on it), I see no reason to perform the procedure.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
There is no way to sugarcoat this. It is a disgusting and vile attack on women. Reading that article made me feel sick all over again.
What I can’t stand is the fact that gender oppression is treated as “culture” while any other kind of oppression is condemned as “human rights abuse”.
African girls (and now young American immigrants) are being mutilated and are sometimes dying as a result. Afghan women are now complete prisoners under Taliban rule. Yet, we look away and say we don’t want to get into issues of “culture”.
When’s the last time an Afghan woman or about-to-be-circumcised girl was given freedom to leave her “culture”?!?! Does it tell you anything that when that hijacked plane landed in England, the women didn’t want to return???
I know we can’t police the world, but lets at least be somewhat even in our positions. We’ve imposed economic sanctions against Afghanistan because they may have shielded bin Laden. Scarce condemnation is ever made of their gender apartheid (check out this link to see what I’m talking about).
Tell me why it was wrong for whites in South Africa to oppress blacks, but it is fine for men in Afghanistan to bar women from having jobs, holding political power, even leaving the house alone or being seen with an uncovered nose.
The U.S. needs to apply a critical eye to “culture” and stop ignoring severe human rights abuses just because they only affect women or children. Female genital mutilation should NOT be allowed in the US, this should be made very clear to immigrants, and parents should be held accountable (and lose their parenting rights) if they arrange to have it performed on their daughters. Afghan women should be given automatic asylum and the Taliban should be clearly condemned for reducing 1/2 of its population to abject slavery.
I rarely stand so high on a soapbox, but this is one area that really gets my blood boiling.
It doesn’t matter much that it’s women doing the circumcizing. I recall reading a book about turn of the century China when foot binding was still practiced. The author’s grandmother recalled what it was like to have her feet bound by her mother. That her mother would sob and plead forgiveness as she broke her little girl’s foot saying “you’ll understand why I’m doing this when you get older”.
If you live in a society where the only guarantee for security and acceptance is through mutilation, then there will be those who will do it. However, how many would choose mutilation if they had a choice?
Is there anything the US can do about it in other countries? No, not really. We can make it clear that it’s a practice we don’t approve of and offer asylum to those that seek it, but I don’t see what we can do beyond that without becoming tyrannical.
Oh, and another reason that this reasoning doesn’t hold up is that social acceptance doesn’t rely on pierced ears. I don’t have pierced ears and have not suffered because of it. I can get my ears pierced this afternoon and still be treated the same.
Exactly. While in cases of political oppression, it can be counterproductive to offer asylum (since all of the dissidents will flee and nobody will be left to fight the cause), in cases of gender oppression there is very little the women can do within their homeland to change their situation. They need to vote with their feet and hope that if enough women leave, the “culture” will change.
Meara: To what degree do you think we should interfere with FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) in Africa? Should we make fedral aid dependent upon laws against it? Or Education progrms? or Laws + Education programs? What about things like drought relief and other emergency aid–should these be deoendent upon the government’s position of FGM?? How much weight should we give a group’s position on FGM when choosing a side to support in a civil war?
I don’t know if anyone read the link to the newsletter I provided. I thought the three writters were a little too politically correct–even the appearence of defending this practice makes me uncomfortable–but they do illustrate just how imbedded this practice is in the cultures of those groups that practice it:
From the article by Aisha Samad Matias:
This is not simply men oppressing women–this is a cultral system completly ingrained in day to day life. Groups who circumscise, cicumscise everyone. In the article in the “Atlantic Monthly” at least one grup of men interviewed by the activist highlighted knew almost nothing about the practice–it was something women did to women, which strong social taboos had stopped them from ever asking any questions about. The taliban is a different situation in many ways–it is something that was imposed by a minority extremist group upon most of the population. Many of the women in Afganistan did not grow up that way. Because of this I think there is a good chance that those horrific conditions will eventually collapse.
Brovold–No, the woman cannot orgasm. Furthermore, in many cases she is left with burning pain for the rest of her life. This is surgery down with at best a razor blade and sometimes with a pair of scissors in the dirt. Girls do die, from blood loss or infection.
Second, if you are told your whole life that this procedure is the only way to be clean, to be a mother, a wife, to protect yourself from men and disease, do you really have a choice, even if you get to say “yes”? In fact, victims of FGM are always below what we would call the age of consent, but the FGM is virtually always done or ordered done by a mother who was the victem of FGM herself.
The problem is that the vast majority of women do not want this culture to change. African women in America fly back to Africa to have this done to thier daughters. Furthermore, it is not these women who suffer–it is thier minor children. By the time they are old enough to “vote with their feet” the damage has been done. Even the conditions in Afganistan are fixable–once you leave, you can change (excepting the psycological damage of such severe oppression. But at least there is a chance).
Furthermore, places where FGM is virtually universial are also places where poverty is rampant. Ethiopia and Somalia have FGM rates of close to 100%, according to the Atlantic Monthly article. An average woman in Somalia has no more chance of getting to the United States than you or I have of getting to the moon.
I don’t see much that can be done by the U.S. to prevent it within Africa. However, it should never be allowed on U.S. soil, and parents who send their children back to have the procedure performed should be investigated by DYFS and subject to child abuse provisions.
It is not sufficient to argue that this is done by women and therefore okay. It is done to CHILDREN who are never given the choice to remain whole. Is it so much different than lopping off the left hand of every child at the age of 5? If we had a viable way to stop it, I would definitely support that effort. Unfortunately, the most powerful influence will have to be the women who grow up intact in America and then go back to spread the word.
Basically, I oppose all oppression, slavery, mutilation, etc. of the helpless. The mutilated children in Africa do not have the power to flee. The women in Afghanistan are not free to leave the country. Neither group has the means to rise against its oppressors.
American policy should be to condemn those “cultures” and rectify the situation whenever it treads on American soil (e.g. grant Afghan women asylum, prosecute parents who aid in the mutilation of their children, etc.)
Actually, by the time everybody wises up to the problem, the damage will be done. Most current Afghan mothers are well educated (former doctors, teachers, etc.), but the next female generation will be brought up by mothers with third-grade educations. In a few generations, the Taliban will have set Afghan women back hundreds of years.
I have a feeling that you and I agree on these issues. FGM is now so ingrained that it will take decades to completely abolish, and that revolution will be led by those few women who DO find the means and will to escape.
What kills me is that in Afghanistan, we are seeing the BEGINNING of one of these awful, ingrained “cultural pecularities”. A few short years ago, Afghan women were completely free. In 20 years, they will be ignorant and aiding in their own oppression. Somehow, we need to find the means to help stop this NOW before it becomes a huge unsolveable mess!
We pump alot of money into some African countries. We could make some or all of this money contigent upon effective steps by the government to curb the practice of FGM. We could impose economic sanctions. I think that thier is a good chance that these methods would work, eventually (over several generations). Should we?
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