I’m sorry…wait, no I’m not. I’m pissed. I’m outraged. I’m disgusted, and I say that there are things which definitely exceed acceptable bounds of “cultural difference” and crash violently into “human rights abuse” and even “criminal”.
#1, 2, 3: Female Genital Mutilation.
Mutilation the genitals of a child so that sex will become meaningless to her and therefore keep her faithful, thereby making her marriagable, is SICK. SICK SICK SICK. And I do NOT accept the idea of “cultural difference”. That’s garbage.
Murdering female family members for “honor” reasons…most especially when she is murdered for dishonoring the family by being RAPED. Please. Just bomb these fucking countries off the face of the earth and be done with it. They don’t deserve to continue. But try to get the women out first.
Burning, mutilating, murdering women who are unacceptable wives or who have spurned a man’s advances. This would be India, where they also abort female babies at a rate which is going to put them in some deep shit in 20 years.
The world is filled with crimes against women. HORRIFIC criemes against women…and they are never treated as the groteque human rights violations that they are, and in fact are often written off to cultural differences. I wonder how true that would be if some country made a practicce of castrating young boys…althoguh that would rapidly kill off the country, wouldn’t it.
I agree and disagree. It is terrible and unexcuseable what is happening. Dont even get me started about Afganistan. But what can we do? I dont think the answer is bombing them to change their culture. That just feeds fires that are just as evil. Perhaps we have to look at crimes against women as we do crimes against ethnic groups. I dont know.
But you are wrong that killing off males would kill off the country. Females control the birthrate.
And war crimes now include rape and sexual violence directed against another group; some of the bastards from the Bosnia war were just convicted of that and other things, I think.
I was once accused of being a bigot because, during a debate against CAtholicism, I mentioned how other religions and cultures are also oppressive and mentioned the point of honor beating and FGM. Someone told me I didn’t understand Islam and middle eastern culture.
I pointed out that I didn’t say EVERYONE was like that, just a few, just like their are bad Catholics. No, according to this person, Catholicism is evil and oppressive, but Islam is just misunderstood.
Well, if that’s middle eastern “culture”, you can have it!
The thing is…morals and ethics are made-up concepts. Until a given society feels that one or more of its traditions or beliefs is no longer acceptable, it will continue (obviously). The same outrage expressed here may be matched by Hindus, because we make hamburgers out of a sacred animal.
From the Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva,
Sections LXXXIII - LXXVII - LXXVI
“Cows are auspicious and sacred, and grantor of every wish and givers of life.”
“Cows are said to represent the highest energy both in this world and the world that is above. There is nothing that is more sacred or sanctifying than cows.”
There’s more, but you get the point. This is not in anyone’s defense, just the other side of the coin.
I pointed out arbitrary morals and ethics in a Why can’t I kill want I want thread.
If you are going to debate FGM, it’s important to separate it from Islam. The practice is indigenous to Africa, and OLDER than Islam - although Islamic practicioners will tell you that they do it because of Islam. It’s not even close to a requirement under Islamic law - it’s not even MENTIONED. The practice is primarily carried out in poor, rural areas with low education levels. Also, it is something practiced by women upon women - yes, it’s as a result of a perception that men prefer women who have been altered, but it is NOT men who are doing the cutting.
Second, I agree with the OP that some of these things are just Wrong, and shouldn’t be excused on “cultural differences.” But I’m not sure what any of us can do about them - movements for change need to come from within the societies themselves. Western Feminists have done a great deal of awareness raising about these issues, but many women within the societies where this happens would not necessarily thank them for this intervention - not because they support FGM but because they have different priorites. African women leaders would not enjoy having someone like Stoidela or me pointing out ways in which they are oppressed.
A lot of this came out at the Beijing conference on Women and the Cairo conference on Population - it was clear that Western groups who wanted to help were speaking a completely different language than the representatives from developing nations. (I will try to find cites & examples- I did some research on this but it was about 5 years ago). “Why are you asking us about this private thing that is none of your business, when our priority is education for our children and access to clean water?”
While we see FGM as a horror, basic and intrinsic within the oppression of women, many women from the cultures who practice it see “the right to sexual fulfillment” as a side issue compared to gaining rights that we in the West take for granted. They are dealing with problems of basic education and economic survival. The way to end cultural practices like FGM is not declaring that the practice is wrong and staging some kind of international intervention - it is providing or creating education and economic opportunities for girls and women. Educated women are significantly less likely to subject their daughters to the practice, and so on.
The women do it to the women because the MEN will REJECT the women who have not had it done. Also, women have been brainwashed into being complicit in their oppression since the beginning of time. That certainly doesnt’ make it alright…
And while the representatives of developing nations may not have had this high on their agenda, that doesn’t mean a thing to the children and girls who are facing having this done. And of course it’s not so much of an issue for women who are already mutilated…it can’t be undone.
I just find the continuing oppression, humiliation, murder, rape, torture, abuse and degradation of women to be an outrage. And the fact that it is woven into the society, still, in the year 2000, boggles the mind completely.
Not too mention that most FGM is done with crude, rusty dirty instruments, no anthesia, no nothing…very crude and painful. Many girls develope infection from dirty scalpels.
And they die. There was a gal on Oprah talking about it (she was from Africa and had had it done against her parents will!) who said that in her tribe, bleeding to death was a sign that a woman was a witch. Pretty convenient, eh?
Stoidela, I’m with you on everything. It’s wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. But the children and girls facing this believe that it’s part of becoming a woman, they don’t understand that it’s wrong until it’s over. And their mothers, and the village women who do the cutting (women who have had this done to them) would not thank you for showing up and telling them it’s wrong. The more education and economic opportunity a woman has, the more likely she is to not have her daughter undergo FGM - and so on. The reason I mention women leaders & representatives is because of the discussions that go on in international bodies -Western feminists say “How can you let this happen to your children and your bodies?” and leaders (feminists) from societies where this is practiced say “How can you make ‘orgasm’ the focus of your agenda when we are trying to deal with basic needs - food, water, economic survival, education?” Because of the colonial heritage, the intervention of Western feminists actually hurts women’s liberation movements in developing countries - it gives their enemies something to focus on, and again, detracts from the problems that they are trying to solve. The end of FGM comes with solutions to the problems of survival.
Also, BOTH men and women perpetuate the practice - in rural areas, where the education level is very low. Women do it to girls because they think it’s necessary for marriage, and men demand it or agree to it because every woman they’ve ever known has had it done - both men and women are brainwashed into thinking that it’s necessary. I don’t know enough about the history of the practice to tell you started it - I’ll try to do some reading this week, but I think both genders within the culture are brainwashed into thinking that it’s necessary. Again, the more educated the families, the less likely they are to perpetuate the practice and the less likely that boys will demand it. It is VERY wrong, and VERY sad, and not culturally excusable, but it is a very old practice - a rite of passage into womanhood, like circumcision and facial scarification for boys - that does not get changed overnight.
Anyway, what’s the debate here? Is anyone going to come and say “these things have their place and time in certain cultures and it’s not for us to say it’s wrong?” Are we debating whether the UN should intervene to stop these practices? Are we talking about the how of the intervention?
Okay, went back and read the OP - stuff about bombing countries where this happens off the face of the earth…
Hmmm…NO?
I’ve gotta say again: The stuff that happens - honor crimes, female infanticide, female genital mutilation, putting wives aside - happens among the poorest & most uneducated sectors of society. It’s not a national phenomenon in any one country, although there is a link between the rise of religious fundamentalism in government and restriction on the freedoms of women in any country - even here. Education and economic opportunity!
Stoid, if you are really interested in this topic, track down these books:
The River Between, by Ngugi
May You Be the Mother of A Hundred Sons, by Elizabeth Bumiller
First is about FGM, story of a young African girl who is about to go through it, unique because it’s written by an African author, not a Westerner putting his own spin on it. Second is by a Washington Post reporter who spent several years in India and interviewed women all over the country trying to get a handle on the scale of oppression. I have more, email me if you are really interested.
Thanks, tracer - I DEFINITELY need to do some research, 75% of Egyptian women seems way too high (although looking at poverty and education statistics, could be correct).
Take heart Stoidela. Our male dominated body of morons (known as our government) has recently qualified the wish to avoid FGM as grounds for granting political asylum. Here’s to a tiny little bit of progress.