I understood your point. In retrospect, I probably should have addressed it in my reply (and have chosen different words to express my disagreement). While I agree that teenagers often wish for things that are foolish, I don’t think that this is one of them. Even as an adult, I sincerely believe that I would have enjoyed such an encounter as a teenager.
Devastating comeback! Consider my chops busted.
I don’t think anyone’s arguing against that.
It’s not just boys. A lot of girls think having sex with an older man is the coolest thing ever, too. Again, nobody’s arguing against that. But since it doesn’t justify statutory rape, and it doesn’t prove that it’s impossible for a man to be raped, what’s the point of bringing it up?
I think you have it backwards. The people in this thread who you are defending are the ones who are making light of the subject.
Yeah, I can remember having pretty wicked fantasies about a few of the younger male substitutes in middle school (like the ones in their 30s) and then this one when I was in 9th grade. He was probably around 40, but hot. Definite fantasies about ‘after school tutoring’.
But seriously, as much as my little fantasy world wanted that to happen, it would’ve fucked me up beyond compare if it actually had happened. Some fantasies should never be made into reality.
We are talking about teenagers, aren’t we? If they know what sex is, and what the consequences are, then they can decide whether or not they want to participate in it.
The problem is that the law isn’t concerned with whether these individuals are, in fact, not yet mature enough to make that decision. It only cares whether or not they’ve lived some arbitrary number of years, which is only statistically correlated with their maturity. Tossing out a minor’s consent because of his age is like banning women from jobs that require physical strength - women tend to be weaker than men on average, but that doesn’t mean there are no individual women who can do the job.
No. It’s not a fact, it’s a generalization based on your personnality when you were a teenager.
I’d never have considered sleeping with a 46 yo woman when I was a horny teenager. Not even a 25 yo. That was just plain old. Not attractive in the slighest. Even amongst my female peers, I certainly wouldn’t have fucked anything with two legs. I was vastly more selective than that. And I was dreaming of love. Love with sex, sure. But still love.
And before you say that I was an exception, my friends were like me. People (including teens) tend to hang out with people with the same mindset. Maybe you and your friends were willing to fuck any woman, but my friends and me were essentially only willing to make love with same age attractive girls we were infatued with.
(And a teacher to boot? Fraternizing with the ennemy?)
That’s too is a baseless generalization of the reverse kind. What makes you think that the majority of 16-17 yo who had sex with an older woman are scared for life?
Having it as a fantasy is one thing. Having it actually happen and turn out well is altogether another. A lot of kids talk big; I remember. I talked big, too. But no way was I ready for sex of any kind until well after middle school, and thankfully somehow I was mature enough to actually know that. Throw a grown woman into the mix and you’ve got major potential for emotional fuckupage.
Any of you who thinks that you or anyone else as middle school students were doing anything at the time besides spewing big talk–and were as far from being “ready” for such a thing to happen as G.W.Bush is from being fiscally responsible–is a fool.
Mainly, I think the supposed adolescent fantasy about having sex with a grown woman is a fantasy entertained primarily by adult men, who enjoy pretending in their memory that they were sohpisticated little love pots as adolescents. When I was in middle school, I talked big, but I didn’t really, truly know what I was talking about (being acquainted with only the bare facts of what was involved), and hardly even knew what to fantasize about, other than kissing girls I thougt were cute and fondling boobs and generally vague nakedness. Fooling around with someone my own age would have been probably ok, but having intercourse with a grown woman could only be the result of emotional maniuplation and would have no chance of turning out well emotionally.
If the chance to have sex with one of the female teachers I actually knew had presented itself, my main reaction would have probably been “oh, gross!” accompanied by a lot giggling and chortling and making of fun.
OMFG. I was talking about middle school students.
By the way, do you mean “scarred for life”? “Scared for life” sounds kind of silly, but ok. But yes, I think even for 16-17 years olds, sexual relationships with mature women are very unlikely to be healthy for them. One thing is for sure: they aren’t going to happen “casually,” especially not with one’s teacher.
This cannot be emphasized enough. (Hey, we AGREE on something!) I mean, I find Ewan McGregor to be the sexiest thing on the planet. However, if in real life, he actually approached me for a fling, I would indeed turn him down and be pretty damn disgusted, as the man is married. Same for Noah Wyle, or Goran Visnjic.
Plenty of women have rape fantasies-doesn’t mean they actually WANT to be raped.
Feh. No older woman ever fucked me up beyond compare. Now I’m bitter and resentful.
I don’t think there’s any great social problem or systemic cause “behind this” if that’s what you mean. There are plenty of weird people acting according to their own particular appetites, fears, & obsessions. We have a large population, & if only a couple of women are known to have done this, than it’s pretty freakin’ rare.
What leads you to think that? Is there any evidence that willing sexual relationships between teenage males and adult women are likely to be unhealthy in any measurable way?
I ask because I’ve seen studies, which I’ve cited in previous threads on this topic and will dig up again if you’d like, showing the opposite: that such relationships are only likely to lead to emotional or psychological trouble later in life when the minor is an unwilling participant.
Not necessarily.
Well it’s possible that that can be the case. It’s a judgment call. I just don’t think we can make generalities such as what was suggested earlier, that it’s impossible for a boy to be taken advantage of because “all boys are horny”, and “you know they want it”. It’s not only incorrect, but it’s a horrible double-standard.
So how would you write the law? Or would you not have a law, and allow any adult to have sex with any child of his or her choice?
Nonsense; it’s nothing like that. Minors can’t enter into contracts, either. This is not some wild, mystical concept.
It wasn’t a “comeback”. I was simply pointing out that out of the 2 of us, obviously I am not the one who was getting “way too worked up”.
You know, the double-standard in this thread is really starting to annoy me. If a teenage girl has sex with a male teacher, our society still seems to automatically assume this is a bad thing and that coercion and rape must have involved. If a teenage boy has sex with a female teacher, a lot of you folks say he’s living out his fantasies and that this is a great thing!
I’ve also been involved in the recent threads on rape and we keep running into the assumption that all men want sex and all women don’t. It’s not just here on the SDMB; it’s a stereotype that runs through our culture as a whole. I was an extremely horny teenager who grew into an extremely horny woman. I was also a complete prude as a teenager in part because I was so horny and in my day it was not acceptable for nice young women to be horny. If you think I’m exaggerating, there were times when I was seriously considering going out, finding anything remotely male and willing, and finding out what it was I was missing. Wanting something, even when you’re doing so with every nerve and every cell in your body screaming for touch, is not the same as being willing to act on it. Coercion and pressure can also be used. I’ve actually fantasized about being the student who’s “willing to do *anything * to avoid failing!” :heavy breathing: In real life, if a teacher made such an offer, I’d be skeeved out and offended, although it could be a fun game with a trusted partner.
Oh, by the way, my lads, I’ll let you in on a dirty little secret. We don’t actually *need * you guys to be erect to have sex with you. You have fingers, tongues, and lips, and if need be we can rub against you until we get off.
It is possible for a teacher to rape a student, regardless of what sexes are involved. To say otherwise, to me, does a disservice to men and, as you may have gathered, I rather like men.
CJ
Agreed.
I would require proof that the alleged victim was factually incapable of giving informed consent.
What’s the difference? Some women have a lot of physical strength; some don’t. Some 16 year olds have the capacity to decide whether or not they want to have sex; some don’t. Lumping individuals into groups based on their age is no more appropriate than doing it by sex or race.
Indeed. There are all kinds of things minors are prohibited from doing because of their age, but what’s your point? One type of discrimination justifies another?
I try to stay away from both of those generalizations myself. Teenage boys and girls can both be either willing or unwilling participants, just like adult men and women.
So, if we’re at the school dance, and you grind against my leg and get off without my permission I’ve been raped?
Lover? Relationship? This kid was twelve years old when LeTourneau sexually abused him. He wasn’t some seventeen year-old who was just shy of the right side of the law, you know. He was a twelve year-old sixth grader when she raped him. Why are you acting like this was just some normal, run of the mill relationship that got way too much publicity and was damaged?
This woman is at best an ephebophile and at worst a pedophile. She has raped a twelve year old boy. Most twelve year-old boys are just going through puberty or just beginning to hit puberty. They are not fully formed adults, they are not capable of making adult decisions about sexual relationships in general and certainly not with their teachers.
Vili Fuluaa did not have the ‘details of his relationship’ repeated on TV and newspaper. The details of his rape at the hands of his teacher were repeated on TV and newspaper. And it sickens me that this sick freak, Mary Kay LeTourneau is actually out of prison.
Believe it or not, he has stated he intends to hook up with her again. I’m not saying what she did wasn’t reprehensible, or that he wasn’t manipulated. I’m saying that basically, she completely warped him, and he’s still “in love” with her, despite all that.
(But then, I suppose it’s no different than any woman who goes back to an abusive man time after time.)
But can we agree that there is a difference between the LeTourneau case and the one described in the OP, in which the participants were considerably older?
Mr. 2001, I see your point, but restricting the rights of minors is not discrimination. You are born knowing nothing, and you have to grow up. Everyone must go through childhood, and learn what he needs to know to function as an adult. I belive that restricting the rights of minors differs on a fundamental level from restricting the rights of women. The two concepts are not analagous, as you seem to believe. Surely you would concede that there are NO 1-year-old children who are capable of making adult decisions, would you not? So an absolute line can be drawn somewhere. I agree with you that how far up in age that line is drawn (16, 17, 18?) is somewhat arbitrary, but I don’t see that as analagous to discriminating against an entire gender. If you don’t think so, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I’m trying to picture a statutory rape trial under a law as you have proposed (or I suppose it would be called something other than ‘statutory rape’). I guess it would be an extremely lengthy trial where the defense puts on as much evidence as it can trying to prove that the victim is capable of making adult decisions. Sounds horribly complicated and unworkable to me. Besides, it would require adults to make some sort of factual determination as to whether the minor they intend to have sex with is capable of making that decision. What sort of due diligence would be required? Would it only be necessary for the adult to believe that the minor was capable of making adult decisions, or would it have to be fact? I think I’ll just hold off on dating 14 year old girls for the time being - still doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.