Two quotations which sum up my feelings on the matter:
Humble Thinker:
Yes. But what is NOT hypocritical is to tell a magazine that displaying accomplished females in scanty clothing is the wrong way to present them. And it is not hypocritical to tell those accomplished females who go along with that for the sake of magazine sales are presenting themselves in a way that minimizes the attention to their genuine talents and accomplishments. It’s certainly their option to participate in such an exercise, but there’s a cost, that people will judge them on their physical attractiveness more than on their talents and accomplishments.
It depends, I suppose, in what way the females came to be considered “accomplished”. In any other field than show business, certainly - a politician or such would be minimizing her accomplishments by being photographed in a bikini or something.
For an actress, being pretty is one of their genuine talents, and part and parcel of what brought them to public notice. Ms. Watson was wildly successful in one series of roles as a child actress, and now would like to signal that she is ready for more grown-up roles. Showing off her boobs is sort of a repudiation of her past roles, as well as a signal that she is qualified to play adult roles.
Didn’t Daniel Radcliffe appear naked in his role in Equus? Probably somewhat the same thing.
Feminism started out doing what you wanted, and felt entitled to do, even if men scolded you for it. Nowadays it means doing what you want, and feel entitled to do, even if women scold you for it.
Regards,
Shodan
Whatever happened to “It’s my body; I can do what I want with it”?
See, this is where the hypocrisy lies. Women think that they have the right to do whatever they want with their body – dress in a revealing manner, etc. But when MEN try to have the same freedom – in this case, make a remark about how the woman’s body looks – suddenly that’s bad and horrible.
A woman who wears shorts or a miniskirt out in public made a conscious, deliberate choice to expose her legs to public view. The REASON for her choice is irrelevant. If it is appropriate for her to dress that way,** then it is EQUALLY appropriate for me to comment on her legs.**
If Emma Watson had simply been given that sort of unsolicited PR advice, it would perhaps be merely patronizing and rude. What was actually said on twitter goes well beyond that, though.
I’ll tell you what I told my five year old. “You get to make choices for your own body. But my ears are part of my body, so you don’t get to scream in them.” Slightly different situation here, but the same reasoning applies.
Cute, but totally inaccurate. Backlash against feminism from women is as old as feminism itself; backlash against feminism from men is as recent as this thread.
That’s a completely bullshit analogy. A more accurate analogy would be a man’s freedom to wear what he wants on his body for a sexy appearance, without getting unsolicited demands for attention because of it.
Your right to do what you want with your body does not extend to a right to harass others, and there’s nothing in the least hypocritical about making that distinction.
[QUOTE=Flyer]
A woman who wears shorts or a miniskirt out in public made a conscious, deliberate choice to expose her legs to public view. […] If it is appropriate for her to dress that way,** then it is EQUALLY appropriate for me to comment on her legs.**
[/quote]
That is not only boorish but ridiculous. Just because something is out in public view doesn’t necessarily mean it’s appropriate for others to comment on it. If you take your bald head out in public, say, is it appropriate for strangers to call out “Hi, baldy!” or “Get a wig!” or “Woo-hoo, look at the shine on that dome!” Or is that in fact inappropriate?
The kind of idiotic logic fail that you’re exhibiting here is an indication of how deeply entrenched this kind of sexist double standard is in our society. A lot of men still automatically take it for granted that they are somehow entitled to demand attention from a woman for their unsolicited reactions to the woman’s appearance, simply because a woman’s appearance is presumed to exist specifically for men to react to.
You can see how flawed your assumptions are by considering what you would deem “appropriate” if the miniskirted woman happened to be walking with her husband. She’s still chosen to dress in a way that exposes her legs, right? So according to your “logic” it’s still “appropriate” for you to comment on her legs, right?
But in fact, you wouldn’t do so, because her husband is there. So your catcalling wasn’t really about your “freedom to do what you want with your body” at all. It was about your unthinking acceptance of the entrenched sexist assumption that women’s bodies are public property in a way that men’s bodies are not.
For real. I would love for Flyer to get the kind of attention he feels is appropriate for him to lavish on women.
Sure, it’s generally legal. That doesn’t mean it’s okay.
Yup. The ludicrous idea that everything you expose to public view is an appropriate subject for public comment would rapidly destroy society, if it were applied to men.
“Hi there Mr. Flyer, we’re here for our 9:15 appointment. Gosh, you bite your fingernails a lot, don’t you?”
[walking past gay bars on the way home from work] “Ooo-wee, baby! Let me get a piece of that!” “Kid, you must be drunk as hell: I wouldn’t fuck that with Mike Pence’s dick.”
“Honey, I’d like you to meet my friend Flyer.” “Wow, I didn’t expect he’d be so overweight.”
But this is the sort of thing that Flyer claims to consider “appropriate”—that is, as long as it involves the physical parts of women that he finds sexually appealing. If it were really applied equally to people in general, he’d rapidly start finding it obnoxiously rude and invasive.
Why is it your business how a stranger dresses? Why would you want to say something that has a high likelihood of causing someone genuine fear and/or discomfort?
All those comments do get made. What you think only women get remarked on? Men just don’t have persecution complexes.
I used to bartend at a mixed gay bar. If I had a nickle for every inappropriate comment and or grope - from men and women. Be nice if we lived in some sort of perfect Star Trek world, but we don’t.
Are you shitting me? No, men get remarked on. Women get remarked on HELLA MORE. Are you seriously disputing this?
No, of course not. But only in the case of women do many people seriously try to normalize such remarks as “appropriate”. Which is why such remarks in the ordinary circumstances of everyday life (as opposed to being surrounded by drunk people in a meat-market bar) are far more commonly directed to women than to men.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
I used to bartend at a mixed gay bar. If I had a nickle for every inappropriate comment and or grope - from men and women.
[/QUOTE]
Every what kind of comment, did you say? Oh right, “inappropriate”.
Namely, when it’s a question of behavior directed at men, nobody seems to have any problem recognizing its inappropriateness. They may shrug it off and think it’s no big deal or the way of the world or just the way people are, but they clearly understand that it’s also rude and invasive.
But when it comes to behavior directed at women, many people will earnestly attempt to claim (as Flyer has illustrated) that men are actually entitled to engage in such behavior, and it’s wrong or “hypocritical” of women to find it inappropriate. That’s a blatant double standard based on nothing but the long-established sexist assumption that women’s bodies fundamentally exist for the sake of other people in a way that men’s bodies don’t.
In my experience, the covers of mens’ magazines show nubile women, while the covers of womens’ magazines show chocolate cakes.
There you go. It’s not women that are targets. It’s people who are sexually desireable to the assholes that are targets. Gay men deal with this shit too, when they hang out with other gay men who think they’re entitled to be inappropriate.
Outside the gay bar, it’s overwhelmingly targeted at women, because more men find women sexually desireable.
(And, yes, I note that you say women do it too, and we do, especially in an environment like a gay bar, or a strip club, where it’s ubiquitous enough to feel appropriate. That’s a problem, I won’t deny it. We’re not angels. But we’re not the majority of offenders, either.)
#notallmen
#yesallwomen
Comments like “wow, didn’t expect her to be so overweight?” Yeah, I’ll dispute that women get those comments more than men. Overweight men get comments too.
Let’s check. In an average 6-month period, how many times have complete strangers in public:
- told you to smile
- catcalled you and/or yelled something derogatory about your looks
- made an unsolicited comment about your hair
- made an unsolicited comment about your clothing
- made an unsolicited comment about your height or weight
- ostentatiously “checked you out” by staring at you, looking you up and down, muttering something to a friend while repeatedly glancing at you, etc. in a way obviously designed to get your attention
- sent you or given you some kind of texted/written message for the purpose of saying how the way you look makes them feel?
Now ask the women you know how many times on average in a 6-month period those things have happened to them.
Seriously? Scores of times for each.
ETA: maybe not the text messages.
Seriously? Scores, as in “multiples of 20”, of total strangers in public tell you to smile, in an average 6-month period? Interesting.