Fender Telecasters

Cafe Society
21

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
Interestingly, an ex-g/f used to have one of Eddie Van Halen’s guitars. She showed it to me in the late-'80s. Here’s a picture of it. I wonder if it was really one of his, or if someone made a copy.
[/QUOTE]

Well, if it is real - and it looks like his VHII guitar, but that wasn’t a Kramer - it could be worth big bucks. In addition to the Frankenstrat replicas from Fender, Eddie himself will sometimes auction off “concert played” parts guitars that usually go for $6 - $10,000…

22

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
What makes a Fender a Fender?

I gather a lot of people ‘build’ their guitars. If you put non-Fender pick-ups and control panel on it’s still a Fender, right? It says so on the head. What if you had a Telecaster and replaced the body with a ‘Licensed by Fender’ copy and reused all of the other parts or replaced them with factory upgrades? Now is it a Fender? What if you didn’t start with a Fender, but built a Telecaster from all-Fender parts? Or suppose you got a Squier and replaced everything except the body with Fender factory parts?

It sort of reminds me of the 200-year-old axe. (Heh.) It’s had five new heads and 20 new handles, but it’s still in fine shape!
[/QUOTE]
I’ve got a 94 Strat Plus which is exactly as I bought it except for some locking strap buttons I put on it. Obviously, this is still a pure Fender to you and me, but to the extent that it is worth anything as a collectible guitar, it’s value and purity are diminished by my minor modification.

At the other extreme, I am in the process of building a Telecaster, starting with a body and a pickup I bought from Wordman. The body was made in Mexico, I don’t know whether by Fender or some other company. If the body was made by Fender, it will be the only Fender part on the guitar when it is done. Maybe I’ll buy a Fender neck plate just to get a Fender part on there. So, assuming that the body was made by someone other than Fender, would this guitar be a Fender in any sense? To me, in only one sense.

Leo Fender produced two guitar designs between 1949 and 1954, the Telecaster and the Stratocaster, the fundamentals of which are unchanged to this day. No matter what parts I use, the end result will be at least a partial tribute to Leo’s genius.

23

[QUOTE=WordMan]
Well, if it is real - and it looks like his VHII guitar, but that wasn’t a Kramer - it could be worth big bucks. In addition to the Frankenstrat replicas from Fender, Eddie himself will sometimes auction off “concert played” parts guitars that usually go for $6 - $10,000…
[/QUOTE]

The page I got the photo from says it’s a Charvel Hybrid VH2.

Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember ex-g/f saying something about auctions. IIRC she said it cost $2,000. (Again, this was in the '80s.) No idea how much she sold it for.

24

[QUOTE=Crotalus]
The body was made in Mexico, I don’t know whether by Fender or some other company. If the body was made by Fender, it will be the only Fender part on the guitar when it is done. Maybe I’ll buy a Fender neck plate just to get a Fender part on there.
[/QUOTE]

You’re safe - that’s from a Made in Mexico (MIM) Fender Tele - whew! :wink:

And yeah, I completely agree with you about Leo - he set the standard, and all roads related to bolt-on neck, solidbody guitars go through him.

WordMan

PS: Crotalus, do a search on eBay for neckplates and Google them, too - now there are after-market makers where you can get neck plates with everything from skulls, pin up girls, hot rods, etc., on them - some are etched so are black and chrome; others are done in some sort of color process. They can look pretty cool - I haven’t gotten one, but may consider it for my next project…

25

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
The page I got the photo from says it’s a Charvel Hybrid VH2.

Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember ex-g/f saying something about auctions. IIRC she said it cost $2,000. (Again, this was in the '80s.) No idea how much she sold it for.
[/QUOTE]

Whoa. If she had proof of ownership, I wouldn’t even want to guess how much EVH’s guitar off VHII would go for.

[proceeding to guess]

He still has his Frankenstrat - and we’ve seen replicas go for $30,000; I would assume the real one would go for Clapton’s Blackie kind of numbers (i.e., $1million or so). I suspect the VHII guitar would go for some big fraction of that - maybe closer to Clapton’s Brownie which went for close to $500,000 I think at the first Crossroads auction…

[/proceeding to guess]

26

She sold it to a cousin. We still exchange emails. I’ll have to ask her if she had a Cert. of Auth. for it.

27

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
She sold it to a cousin. We still exchange emails. I’ll have to ask her if she had a Cert. of Auth. for it.
[/QUOTE]

that would be very cool. I am not a full-on EVH geek (I love their first few albums and he was a major influence when I was a wee guitar-playing lad waaayyy back in the day) but I know some folks who would just drool to hear about it…and it would be important to find out exactly what it is - is it the VHII guitar - the one from the cover, which to my knowledge is the one he played on the album? Or was it a touring guitar meant to look like the original - or something made for him or someone else for a different purpose - you get the idea…

28

[QUOTE=WordMan]
that would be very cool. I am not a full-on EVH geek (I love their first few albums and he was a major influence when I was a wee guitar-playing lad waaayyy back in the day) but I know some folks who would just drool to hear about it…and it would be important to find out exactly what it is - is it the VHII guitar - the one from the cover, which to my knowledge is the one he played on the album? Or was it a touring guitar meant to look like the original - or something made for him or someone else for a different purpose - you get the idea…
[/QUOTE]

OK, this is what she says:

29

Oy.

These days, a true Gibson PAF pickup - just on its own, no celebrity association - can sell for $5 - $10,000. Having EVH’s backup guitar from the VHII tour, with a PAF would still easily be worth a ton - maybe a couple-hundred grand?? Since he was a pioneer in using the Floyd Rose (by the way, your ex-gf knows her lingo; sounds like a keeper! :stuck_out_tongue: ), it would’ve been cool if it still had it, but I have no idea if that is a big deal.

Bottom line is that some guitarists are considered huge influences in guitar trends and no one is bigger than Eddie (Hendrix, Clapton, SRV, etc. are all just as huge - again, I am not commenting on who’s better, just whether guitars they have played are considered a big deal); since EVH did his own tech work himself (did all his own re-fretting and builds, etc.) and has been SO influential, I can’t see how this can be anything but a big deal. I am sure an EVH guitar expert (and they are out there, I suspect) would have more specific questions and nuances to consider, but in general - that is a big-deal guitar. Again, assuming it is properly documented…

30

More info on the EVH guitar:

31

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
More info on the EVH guitar:
[/QUOTE]

Fascinating and it sounds reasonable. I doubt it would take much to get the guitar verified - heck, take it back to the “Burst Brothers” (lord, I hate that nickname) - the two guys who run the Vintage department at the Hollywood Guitar Center - they’re the ones who bought Blackie and Clapton’s '64 ES335 “Crossroads” guitar (both made into limited edition replicas) and would know how to authenticate it…

32

Apparently she’s lost contact with her cousin and doesn’t really want to find him. I’d be kicking myself if I got rid of something worth potentially 200 kilobucks! But it just doesn’t matter to her.

Anyway, she asked me to pass this along:

What’s the story on that?

33

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
Apparently she’s lost contact with her cousin and doesn’t really want to find him. I’d be kicking myself if I got rid of something worth potentially 200 kilobucks! But it just doesn’t matter to her.

Anyway, she asked me to pass this along: Tell your friend that I still have my 1976 Ibanez Custom "lawsuit " edition Les Paul copy, the one that Gibson sued Ibanez over. He’ll know what I’m
talking about…

What’s the story on that?
[/QUOTE]

I had a thread on Lawsuits a few years ago; I will have to see if I can find it (I couldn’t). Basically, in the 70’s Ibanez was moving from shlocky to better-crafted guitars. One way they did that was to reverse-engineer from vintage Gibsons and Fenders made in the 50’s and 60’s - the ones that command massive $$ now. At the same time, Gibson was owned by Norlin and Fender by CBS and both were churning out what are generally considered to be not-great guitars (with Gibson is was more that they changed the design of guitars like Les Pauls - e.g., from 1-piece mahogany necks to 3-piece maple ones, etc. - with Fenders, their quality control went to crap).

So Ibanez was getting a lot of business and Gibson and Fender weren’t sure what to do (eventually they got their acts together and started improving their quality and returning to the original designs). One thing Gibson did was sue Ibanez - and just like with Al Capone getting busted for tax evasion, Gibson sued Ibanez over…the shape of their headstock. Gibson accused Ibanez of violating their copywright (or whatever the correct term is) on the “mustache” or “open book” headstock design that is a Gibson trademark (ah, is that the right term??)

I can’t recall, but think it was settled out of court - Ibanez started making their own designs. But those Lawsuit guitars have become collectible unto themselves and are starting to command a real premium - especially their versions of the Explorer (called a Destroyer - that’s the guitar that EVH hacked up and had on the cover of Women and Children First - he ruined its tone by hacking out a piece of the body, according to him) and Flying V (I think called a “Rocket Roll” or something silly like that). Getting up over a couple of thousand bucks.

What’s interesting is that the factory where they were made in Japan kept turning out exact replicas - but private labelled under a variety of names like Tokai, Greco, Burny, Penco and a few others - and some were of VERY high quality - those should not officially be called “Lawsuits” because they aren’t Ibanez from the 70’s, but some are really going up in value, especially the higher-end Tokai’s and Grecos.

There are some dealers on line who deal in those guitars exclusively - here’s one: http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/

fwiw, I have an early 80’s Burny and have had a few Ibanez’ and one other Burny. I am looking to sell my Burny LP because I need to fund my next parts-guitar build project and it’s “tonal footprint” ( :rolleyes: ) overlaps a lot with my main guitar. It is a truly great playing and sounding guitar, though - and my experience with them has been very positive.

That’s a long way of saying: yep, I know what she’s talking about and very cool.

WordMan
SDMB Dept of Guitar Geekery

34

[QUOTE=WordMan]
One thing Gibson did was sue Ibanez - and just like with Al Capone getting busted for tax evasion, Gibson sued Ibanez over…the shape of their headstock. Gibson accused Ibanez of violating their copywright (or whatever the correct term is) on the “mustache” or “open book” headstock design that is a Gibson trademark (ah, is that the right term??)
[/QUOTE]
It was probably a design patent, which are notoriously weak IP protection, IIRC.

35

[QUOTE=squeegee]
It was probably a design patent, which are notoriously weak IP protection, IIRC.
[/QUOTE]

[Ed McMahon]

I did not know that.

[/Ed McMahon]

36

[QUOTE=Crotalus]
I’ve got a 94 Strat Plus which is exactly as I bought it except for some locking strap buttons I put on it. Obviously, this is still a pure Fender to you and me, but to the extent that it is worth anything as a collectible guitar, it’s value and purity are diminished by my minor modification.
[/QUOTE]
So I’ve devalued my 1978 Tele by replacing a machine head* Oh No! It probably doesn’t help that I have also refinished the neck replaced the scatchplate with a picture of Barbara Harris and used the guitar as a cricket bat**

  • Broke the top 'head off on the roof of Woolwich Poly, stayed in tune tho.
    ** Not really. It just looks like I did.
37

[QUOTE=Small Clanger]
So I’ve devalued my 1978 Tele by replacing a machine head* Oh No! It probably doesn’t help that I have also refinished the neck replaced the scatchplate with a picture of Barbara Harris and used the guitar as a cricket bat**

  • Broke the top 'head off on the roof of Woolwich Poly, stayed in tune tho.
    ** Not really. It just looks like I did.
    [/QUOTE]

Real players use their tools. **Crotalus **was pointing out how even subtle changes affect the “collectible condition” of guitar - but I happen to know he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about that…

And yeah, nothing like using a Tele as a paddle for a bit of canoeing, drying it off and using it at a gig that night. Okay, perhaps that is a bit extreme, but I swear not by much…

38

[QUOTE=WordMan]
And yeah, nothing like using a Tele as a paddle for a bit of canoeing, drying it off and using it at a gig that night. Okay, perhaps that is a bit extreme, but I swear not by much…
[/QUOTE]

I thought I’d mentioned this. Maybe it was in another thread. My Tele is just like the one I used to have, which I bought from a friend and then sold back to him when he wanted it. That guitar went through Hurricane Katrina and was submerged for a while. When he got back from South America he refinished it and painted Mickey Rat on it.

It still sounds fine.

39

Got any pics, Johnny? I’m always seeing these durn cat pic threads…what I’d like to see is a guitar pic thread…except where that SQUEEE! sound you hear is some righteous feedback.

40

[QUOTE=WordMan]
Real players use their tools. **Crotalus **was pointing out how even subtle changes affect the “collectible condition” of guitar - but I happen to know he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about that…

<snip>
[/QUOTE]
The only reason my Strat Plus is almost pristine after 14 years is that I pretty much like everything about it. And I guess it makes sense that my only vintage guitar is a '65 Mustang that a previous owner stripped to bare wood, turning a guitar I probably couldn’t afford into a $500 player.