I’ve noticed on music classifieds that everyone wants made in mexico fenders, especially stratocasters, lately. What’s up with that? I don’t keep up with guitar stuff, but when I did, I thought that the mexican ones were considered crappy and inferior. I remember that eighties japanese fenders were in a weird vogue for a while…is this just some trend like that?
Some of the ads are saying “Even Squiers!”
[QUOTE=VCO3]
I’ve noticed on music classifieds that everyone wants made in mexico fenders, especially stratocasters, lately. What’s up with that? I don’t keep up with guitar stuff, but when I did, I thought that the mexican ones were considered crappy and inferior. I remember that eighties japanese fenders were in a weird vogue for a while…is this just some trend like that?
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I have an American-made Telecaster (American Vintage '52) and a Mexican Telecaster (Standard), both bought new about two years ago. (I got the latter specifically for purposes of hotrodding. The only things I left stock were the actual wood, the frets, and the truss rod.) The Mexican Tele was indeed crappy and inferior by comparison with the American one.
I have a Japanese-made Jazz Bass (fretless) from the early '90s, which remains the best damn bass I have ever played in my life.
They’re decently made and they’re cheap. The pickups, caps, and pots should be replaced if you want to maximize the guitar’s possibilities, but the build-quality is not bad at all. The Nashville Tele that’s made in Mexico is a helluva guitar for $500 or so (although it doesn’t come with a case).
I should add that I have a '55 Tele I’ve played for decades, so I’m comparing the MIM stuff to the real thing. Sure, the MIM Standard Tele isn’t up with the '52 reissue (which is a fine guitar with excellent recreations of the original pickups), and there are certainly bad apples in every bunch, but you can find very good ones. Their QC is no worse than Gibson’s—that’s for sure (Gibsons have always been inconsistent, be it their acoustic guitars, electric guitars, mandolins, banjos, lapsteels …).
[QUOTE=Subterraneanus]
I should add that I have a '55 Tele I’ve played for decades, so I’m comparing the MIM stuff to the real thing. Sure, the MIM Standard Tele isn’t up with the '52 reissue (which is a fine guitar with excellent recreations of the original pickups), and there are certainly bad apples in every bunch, but you can find very good ones. Their QC is no worse than Gibson’s—that’s for sure (Gibsons have always been inconsistent, be it their acoustic guitars, electric guitars, mandolins, banjos, lapsteels …).
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You’ve got a '55? YOWZA! Any pics you can link to? What do you play it through?? I have '57 Les Paul Special which I think plays like the Tele of Les Pauls - a plank of good wood, a couple of pickups and you’re off to the races!
To comment on the OP:
in the late 70’s and early 80’s the Fuji Gen Gakki factory in Japan was turning out private label replicas of Gibsons and Fenders - under names like Greco, Tokai, Burny, etc. At the time both Fender and Gibson had undergone design changes to key models like Tele’s, Strats and Les Pauls and players wanted ones like the old ones. The Japanese made that older way AND had much higher quality control. When Fender got wind of that, they contracted with the FJG factory to make Fender Japan guitars, including the first Squires. When these first Japanese guitars got to the U.S. HQ, legend has it that the Fender execs freaked over the superior quality and it led to the buyback of Fender from CBS, a complete re-tooling of their manufacturing processes - the whole bit. So those early Japanese Fenders are considered excellent, collectible guitars.
Now, many of Fenders non-Custom Shop parts are made in Mexico but assembled in the U.S. for “U.S.” Fenders. MIM Fenders can have parts of lesser quality - I just swapped out a Fender MIM body on my Tele since it was basically fancy alder plywood - but the assembly quality is very high, the price is very affordable and as **Sub ** said, with some basic part swapping you can do really well.
The trick is to play a TON of them. They vary mostly due to parts quality - some/most of the bodies are not “toneful” or the neck/body joint doesn’t resonate like, say, a '55 Tele’s 
. You can find a great one but you will likely have to play a dozen or three to find it - and you have to know how to listen and feel for a good one while playing in a Guitar Center :rolleyes: something that takes a lot of experience to do…
[QUOTE=WordMan]
You’ve got a '55? YOWZA! Any pics you can link to? What do you play it through?? I have '57 Les Paul Special which I think plays like the Tele of Les Pauls - a plank of good wood, a couple of pickups and you’re off to the races!
To comment on the OP:
in the late 70’s and early 80’s the Fuji Gen Gakki factory in Japan was turning out private label replicas of Gibsons and Fenders - under names like Greco, Tokai, Burny, etc. At the time both Fender and Gibson had undergone design changes to key models like Tele’s, Strats and Les Pauls and players wanted ones like the old ones. The Japanese made that older way AND had much higher quality control. When Fender got wind of that, they contracted with the FJG factory to make Fender Japan guitars, including the first Squires. When these first Japanese guitars got to the U.S. HQ, legend has it that the Fender execs freaked over the superior quality and it led to the buyback of Fender from CBS, a complete re-tooling of their manufacturing processes - the whole bit. So those early Japanese Fenders are considered excellent, collectible guitars.
Now, many of Fenders non-Custom Shop parts are made in Mexico but assembled in the U.S. for “U.S.” Fenders. MIM Fenders can have parts of lesser quality - I just swapped out a Fender MIM body on my Tele since it was basically fancy alder plywood - but the assembly quality is very high, the price is very affordable and as **Sub ** said, with some basic part swapping you can do really well.
The trick is to play a TON of them. They vary mostly due to parts quality - some/most of the bodies are not “toneful” or the neck/body joint doesn’t resonate like, say, a '55 Tele’s . You can find a great one but you will likely have to play a dozen or three to find it - and you have to know how to listen and feel for a good one while playing in a Guitar Center :rolleyes: something that takes a lot of experience to do…
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Yeah, maybe I should put up some pictures, but I don’t like coming off like I’m gloating. I bought it in 1980 for $800, before the whole vintage thing took off. From my perspective I was just buying an old Tele that I thought sounded great—better than that CBS crap they were putting out at the time. My favorite amp has always been the Deluxe Reverb, although I’ve played just about everything ever made at one time or another. I once had a '49 TV-front Deluxe that was mint. I mean mint, and it is still the best sounding Deluxe I’ve ever played. I stupidly sold it in 1991 for $1,500 in order to finance an AC-15 I just had to have at the moment. Lately I’ve been playing around with a new Gibson GA-5 that I like a lot. Slapped a NOS Mullard in it last week and it sounds great. Of course, you’re right about the importance of an electric guitar’s resonance. In fact, when I buy a guitar I don’t even plug it in, except to check that the electronics work. I play it unplugged: if it resonates in the right way against my ribcage, it’s guaranteed to sound great. I’ll add that I’ve played some reissue Strats and Teles that are every bit as good as the originals—I’m a big fan of the '52 Tele and Nocaster reissues—and some originals that were dogs.
As you can see, I have a problem.
P.S. I love Specials and Juniors, although my Junior is a reissue with Wolfetone pickups in it. Nice guitar, but I’d rather have your Special I’m sure. Love that all-mahogany honk.
[QUOTE=Subterraneanus]
Yeah, maybe I should put up some pictures, but I don’t like coming off like I’m gloating. I bought it in 1980 for $800, before the whole vintage thing took off. From my perspective I was just buying an old Tele that I thought sounded great—better than that CBS crap they were putting out at the time. My favorite amp has always been the Deluxe Reverb, although I’ve played just about everything ever made at one time or another. I once had a '49 TV-front Deluxe that was mint. I mean mint, and it is still the best sounding Deluxe I’ve ever played. I stupidly sold it in 1991 for $1,500 in order to finance an AC-15 I just had to have at the moment. Lately I’ve been playing around with a new Gibson GA-5 that I like a lot. Slapped a NOS Mullard in it last week and it sounds great. Of course, you’re right about the importance of an electric guitar’s resonance. In fact, when I buy a guitar I don’t even plug it in, except to check that the electronics work. I play it unplugged: if it resonates in the right way against my ribcage, it’s guaranteed to sound great. I’ll add that I’ve played some reissue Strats and Teles that are every bit as good as the originals—I’m a big fan of the '52 Tele and Nocaster reissues—and some originals that were dogs.
As you can see, I have a problem.
P.S. I love Specials and Juniors, although my Junior is a reissue with Wolfetone pickups in it. Nice guitar, but I’d rather have your Special I’m sure. Love that all-mahogany honk.
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Sub - you know your stuff! I tried to email you but you aren’t listed - if you are in the mood, go to my profile and get my email address and drop me a line - I’d love to talk.
I have a Bruno boutique Tweed Deluxe replica - the 6v6’s give me enought more breakup over 6L6’s that I can’t resist - I am more of a Marshall-toned guy myself, and so love the in-between Missing Link tone that Tweeds provide. And it loves pedals, so I can add a bit of gain to further tighten the lows and compress the mids.
I am building a Parts-O-Tele right now - big Fat Allparts neck, gorgeous light ash, nitro butterscotch body from Guitar Mill, with a Duncan Jerry Donahue at the bridge and a Phat Cat P-90 at the neck. Tele heaven!!
And just to be the dude that I am, please note that I would be happy to relieve of your Tele at any time for the princely sum of, oh, $810!!
[QUOTE=WordMan]
Sub - you know your stuff! I tried to email you but you aren’t listed - if you are in the mood, go to my profile and get my email address and drop me a line - I’d love to talk.
I have a Bruno boutique Tweed Deluxe replica - the 6v6’s give me enought more breakup over 6L6’s that I can’t resist - I am more of a Marshall-toned guy myself, and so love the in-between Missing Link tone that Tweeds provide. And it loves pedals, so I can add a bit of gain to further tighten the lows and compress the mids.
I am building a Parts-O-Tele right now - big Fat Allparts neck, gorgeous light ash, nitro butterscotch body from Guitar Mill, with a Duncan Jerry Donahue at the bridge and a Phat Cat P-90 at the neck. Tele heaven!!
And just to be the dude that I am, please note that I would be happy to relieve of your Tele at any time for the princely sum of, oh, $810!!
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I will visit your profile. Do you post on any musician’s forums?
I agree with you about 6V6s, and I get a bit annoyed when I hear about people rebiasing their Deluxes to accept 6L6s. It’s a 6V6 amp, dammit, and it’s perfect as it is. If someone wants 6L6s in it they should just get a Tremolux or Vibroverb instead. And I agree that the tweed sound lies somewhere between the scooped blackface sound and the darker/midrangey (vintage) Marshall sound. The new Gibson GA-5 is very tweedy-sounding. You’re probably aware that Fender has just released its handwired tweed Deluxe reissue. Apparently it sounds great, but it’s priced at almost three times what a good clone kit costs. Then again, I could have bought a good 18-watt clone for less than half of what I paid for my 1974X reissue, but I wanted a real Marshall. I know, weak. But like I said, I have a problem.
Your Tele project sounds fun.
I will sell you my Tele for $810, but I will include a substantial service charge.
When you guys talk about Made in Mexico Fenders, are you referring to the new Standard Editions ?
And how do you choose new pickups? How much do the different pickups vary in sound quality? And how do you change them? Is it easy or would someone who’s never done it before cause serious damage to the guitar’s body?
If you can solder and follow a very basic wiring diagram, you can fit new pickups yourself. If not, your friendly music storre will do it for you. Different pickups can make a HUGE difference in sound.
D’oh! I traded my Mexi-strat a few years ago. If I’d held on to it, I probably could’ve charged a premium! :smack:
[QUOTE=Subterraneanus]
I will visit your profile. Do you post on any musician’s forums?
I agree with you about 6V6s, and I get a bit annoyed when I hear about people rebiasing their Deluxes to accept 6L6s. It’s a 6V6 amp, dammit, and it’s perfect as it is. If someone wants 6L6s in it they should just get a Tremolux or Vibroverb instead. And I agree that the tweed sound lies somewhere between the scooped blackface sound and the darker/midrangey (vintage) Marshall sound. The new Gibson GA-5 is very tweedy-sounding. You’re probably aware that Fender has just released its handwired tweed Deluxe reissue. Apparently it sounds great, but it’s priced at almost three times what a good clone kit costs. Then again, I could have bought a good 18-watt clone for less than half of what I paid for my 1974X reissue, but I wanted a real Marshall. I know, weak. But like I said, I have a problem.
Your Tele project sounds fun.
I will sell you my Tele for $810, but I will include a substantial service charge.
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I hang out on The Gear Page and The Les Paul Forum, mostly, for music stuff - you?
And yeah, if you’re gonna go Blackface, go big bottle all the way (relax, folks: “blackface” is the standard jargon for a mid-60’s Fender amp which had a black metal control panel; the word is used to differentiate from later silverface amps…).
I could keep geeking out on amps, since **Sub ** clearly can geek with the best of 'em , but we’ll save it for email.
Soapbox - as **Death Ray **points out, changing pickups is pretty straightforward. But unless you are a real pickup-swapping gearhead, at least 80% of the time (or much higher) swaps aren’t needed. The first think you need to focus on, as Sub and I mention in our posts, is how the guitar sounds unplugged. I could get all geeky about it, but trust me, figuring out how the guitar sounds unplugged and getting a good one is key. Maybe a friend who knows guitars can help you? Like I said above, I’ve gone through a few dozen Mexi-Teles to find a good one. Same with Gibson ES335’s - costs $2000 or more but I had to go through a ton before I found a truly great one…
After that, the amp is next most important. After that if you have a resonant, toneful guitar that sounds great unplugged and a good amp, THEN you can figure out if your pickups are the right ones to complete that circuit. And don’t get me started on effects pedals, aka usually crutches for folks who are trying to cover something up…
[QUOTE=WordMan]
And don’t get me started on effects pedals, aka usually crutches for folks who are trying to cover something up…
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I’m intrigued as to why you think this. Sure effects can help cover up someone who isn’t quite up to snuff in the technique department yet, but to write them off completely?
Personally, I think pedals allow you to evoke 100 times as many kinds of sounds out of your guitar. So if your intention is finding neat and unique sounds, I would argue that effects pedals are essential.
[QUOTE=VCO3]
I’ve noticed on music classifieds that everyone wants made in mexico fenders, especially stratocasters, lately.
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Cite?
**Gentle Robot ** - don’t sweat it; Mexican-made Fenders have been considered well-made, inexpensive alternatives to US-made for years - I didn’t sweat the “all of a sudden” bit…
Soapbox Monkey - no, I stand by what I said. IMHO, a person should first learn to play the guitar, then add pedals - kind of like a chef should learn to work with the basic ingredients and then add spices. Oregano is great, and pretty much anyone can add it to anything, but it takes an experienced cook to know exactly how much to add and when.
Okay, enough of the cooking analogy. Effects are often used to mask bad technique. Effects add noise to the signal and reduce the ability to get a truly great tone out of a good guitar and all-tube amp. Most folks don’t know how to use effects properly and the settings are way off, making them sound wrong.
It’s hard enough to learn how to get a good tone out of a simple guitar/cord/amp set up - adding effects into the mix makes it that much more complicated…
You can get a ton of sounds out of effect combinations - but 99% of them are bad, and they distract you from truly listening to the fundamental tone of the guitar+amp, which is what really matters and the effects can only modify a bit.
My $.02 as a long-time gigging guitarist
[QUOTE=WordMan]
**Gentle Robot ** - don’t sweat it; Mexican-made Fenders have been considered well-made, inexpensive alternatives to US-made for years - I didn’t sweat the “all of a sudden” bit…
Soapbox Monkey - no, I stand by what I said. IMHO, a person should first learn to play the guitar, then add pedals - kind of like a chef should learn to work with the basic ingredients and then add spices. Oregano is great, and pretty much anyone can add it to anything, but it takes an experienced cook to know exactly how much to add and when.
Okay, enough of the cooking analogy. Effects are often used to mask bad technique. Effects add noise to the signal and reduce the ability to get a truly great tone out of a good guitar and all-tube amp. Most folks don’t know how to use effects properly and the settings are way off, making them sound wrong.
It’s hard enough to learn how to get a good tone out of a simple guitar/cord/amp set up - adding effects into the mix makes it that much more complicated…
You can get a ton of sounds out of effect combinations - but 99% of them are bad, and they distract you from truly listening to the fundamental tone of the guitar+amp, which is what really matters and the effects can only modify a bit.
My $.02 as a long-time gigging guitarist
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I can respect your opinion, and if you don’t mind, I would like to probe it further.
What are your opinions on the following guitar players:
Steve Vai
Yngwie Malmsteen
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Eric Clapton
John Mayer
Jimmy Page
David Gilmour
Jimi Hendrix
Thurston Moore
Jonny Greenwood
Johnny Marr
Joey Santiago
Isaac Brock
I agree that someone learning guitar should learn to play well before they get too crazy with effects, but at what point do you consider a guitarist “proficient.” At what point can I say “cool, I’m good at guitar, now I can add effects”?
**Soapbox ** - I see this post but have been on the road and have a bunch of stuff I have to get done, and this could take a bit of time. Let me ponder this.
I hope it is okay that we seem to have hijacked this thread a bit.
I will say one thing now: Learning how to listen to your own playing is a hard, continuous process. Find people whose taste you respect - preferably working players, since nothing surpasses live gigs for learning what works in your playing - and ask them about your sound. Make it clear you aren’t fishing for compliments, that you are trying to learn. Ask them specific questions about whether your sound is wet enough (i.e, has enough reverb, chorus or echo: in a big, boomy room, you want a LOT less of it, since it is there naturally; in a smaller room, a small bit of it sweetens up your tone. You almost never want a lot unless you are Dick Dale and can pull it off). They will point stuff out to you that you couldn’t hear before, and you will progress.
It takes time and a willingness to engage and truly listen to people crapping on your playing - which can be hard to hear a lot of the time - but it is the only reliable way I have gotten to the place where I can gauge what I like and can adjust for in my playing, which is ultimately what matters.
[QUOTE=Soapbox Monkey]
I can respect your opinion, and if you don’t mind, I would like to probe it further.
What are your opinions on the following guitar players:
Steve Vai
Yngwie Malmsteen
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Eric Clapton
John Mayer
Jimmy Page
David Gilmour
Jimi Hendrix
Thurston Moore
Jonny Greenwood
Johnny Marr
Joey Santiago
Isaac Brock
I agree that someone learning guitar should learn to play well before they get too crazy with effects, but at what point do you consider a guitarist “proficient.” At what point can I say “cool, I’m good at guitar, now I can add effects”?
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You know, I’ve thought about this, and I can’t see much value in picking each player apart - too easy to get distracted by a detail, when it is the overall picture that matters. IMHO, the only thing that matters is that you play for the song. If your playing stands out within that context, you win. Hendrix on The Wind Cries Mary or All Along the Watchtower didn’t just play great rhythm and lead work as a guitarist, he wrote and performed a deeply memorable song. An individual’s talent can only be heard if the delivery system does its job first.
And a great guitarist is, first and foremost, a rhythm guitarist. If you don’t live “in the pocket” of the rhythm - for however “the pocket” is defined for your music style - you don’t integrate and build the energy you need to reach the listener. Listen to one of David Gilmour’s leads and tell me that he isn’t 100% a rhythm guitarist in how solid he is locked in to the pocket.
All the guitarists you name have solid reputations within their styles. I have no need to question that - I have points of view on a few of them that both agree, and run counter to the prevailing wisdom. But any of these guitarist can be used to reinforce your ability to learn how to play for the song and find the pocket. It really just depends on you deciding to make these your goals…
As for “how good before you should add effects?” - honestly, there is no hard and fast rule. At any point in your playing, if you feel the desire to mess with effects, do it. Just remember that Less is More. And make sure you spend at least as much time playing without effects - you should want to anyway, simply to figure out what your hands can do. I guess in my conservative, tone-first sort of way, I would say this: Don’t add the effect until you are in a specific situation where it is needed for the performance. Kinda like, there’s no real need to play a “Jimmy Page” doubleneck unless you, too, happen to be playing in front of 20,000 people, focused on a song that switches from 12-string, to 6-string and you have to do it on the fly. Otherwise, you come across like a bit of a wanker. I try to keep that mindset with use of effects - do I really need it? Sometimes, the only way to decide that is to live with one for a while. Be happy.
My $.02