Funny how you decry calling Brown the victim WHILE you call Wilson that. It goes back to my point that people base their conclusions on their emotional needs rather than logically looking at the evidence.
In no logical, UNEMOTIONAL, view of the facts can anyone say Brown’s death was in an act of self defense.
Whether or not I have empathy for Brown has no bearing on Wilson’s guilt or innocence, and that’s what I’m concerned with. I’m not going to say you’re softheaded - your post was far too good an explanation of your position, and why you hold it, for that. Obviously, I disagree with you, and I think I’ve explained why, but thankyou for actually debating this.
It continues to bother me that some people - and your post could be read as meaning you are one - think that empathy for criminals and terrorists is somehow more important than empathy for their victims. And any police officer who is attacked, or has things thrown at them in a protest, and any store owner who’s shop is looted in a riot, are victims. The empathy for them seems to be hugely lacking, as evidenced by various posters arguing that even if Wilson was being attacked (and if the story of his injury is true, he was), he should not have shot, or shot to wound, or paused between shots. That shows a massive misunderstanding of the psychology involved.
Nonsense. The facts that we have support both self defence and murder, as well as other conclusions - mainly because we have relatively few of them. There’s plenty of speculation that, if it turns out to be fact, could support either side as well.
One of those facts, though, is that Wilson was on the receiving end of violent action by Brown, and using violence against a police officer is pretty much a no-no at all times. If it does turn out, as it’s alleged, that he had broken bones in his face, then he was not only the victim of an assault but a serious battery.
So, in keeping with both legal and moral principles, as there’s no conclusive evidence of guilt, I will presume Wilson is innocent. As should you, and everyone else.
As Brown is not being accused of a crime, no such standard applies to him. This is not a situation where they need to be treated equally, as Brown is (for obvious reasons) in no jeopardy.
I agree with your analogy. The correct conclusion is: only a small fringe of the GOP supports the sentiment.
The first proposition in my analogy is absolutely debatable, in that it may not be an adequate statement of the level of disagreement. (In my defense, you’d only given one cite of “GOP disagreement” with the opinion.)
However, the idea that the sentiment is held by “only a small fringe” is no more supportable than “it’s a consensus opinion.”
Isn’t it for the person making the initial claim to support it?
In debate, a gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.
He is dead. The manner in which he was accused of a crime was that his life was ended by a police officer. Why don’t you presume that he was innocent?
Your victim/criminal distinction is all well and good until you’re forced to confront the fact that you’ve assumed you know who the criminal is and who the victim is, and then applied principles of empathy to that dynamic.
OK. I’ll gratuitously deny your assertion that it’s only a small fringe of GOPers who are sympathetic to the sentiment. Because it really fits in seamlessly with the otherwise well documented GOP disdain for voter registration efforts and policies which tend to increase voter turnout (early voting, vote-by-mail, expanded voting hours, more polling places, etc.)
… and the choice of at least one with those views to be a state Executive Director. :rolleyes:
Bricker is on record as idolizing Karl Rove, so don’t expect him to condemn minor racists.
He’s also on record as supporting full voting rights for Blacks and other Democrats … as long as GOP state governments are able to place any “legal” obstacles they can come up with in the way.
The shooting could have been avoided, but we need to look at the whole interaction starting from the beginning. When Wilson approached Brown, did he do it with respect or disdain? Did he politely ask “Sir, would you mind walking on the sidewalk instead of the road?” or bark out “Get out of the street!”. I’m likely to guess he spoke with disdain based on how blacks in Ferguson describe stories of routine harassment by the police. I would suppose Wilson saw Brown as just another thug and treated him thusly.
There are many stories of people hassled for “Driving While Black” or “Standing While Black”. That type of environment creates a culture where the police and minorities view each other as the enemy and these types of outcomes are unavoidable. The riots are a reaction to the state of the police and minority relations, not specifically to the Brown shooting.
I am white. I had some interactions with police over the last 30 years or so. Not once had the interaction started with “Sir, would you mind…”. Do you think it’s because the policemen saw me as just another thug?
Well, it seems Ferguson is still attempting to try the case in the press:
Video release by city of Ferguson of Wilson accepting an award on 2/11/2014.
ISTM that this is one of those issues which are semi-circular in that everything depends on what you think going in.
If you think current societal racism and racial oppression are already at sky high levels, then you see stirring things up further as bringing necessary attention to facts that are already obvious to anyone who looks closely at it.
If you think current societal racism is not quite as pervasive and oppressive as that, then you see stirring things up as creating ill will for ideological or political purposes.
In general, Republicans have a political advantage in keeping racial tension down and Democrats have a political incentive to stir things up. But it also tends to align with the worldview of members of each group, as above. Hard to sort out the mixture of motivations.
That said, it was a boneheaded thing to say publically at this time.
On an unrelated note, I wonder if anyone is up for some speculation about what Eric Holder is up to. My own speculation is that he has a two-pronged approach, aimed at appeasing the community one way or another. One the one hand, they will turn over heaven and earth to find some evidence that they can use to indict the cop with. But if that comes up dry, (or possibly even if it doesn’t) then they will conduct a broad civil rights review of the Ferguson police department (and possibly beyond) and with the help of statistical analysis and poignant stories, will impose some sort of consent agreement involving reforms and Justice Department monitoring. But again, that’s all speculation.
Maybe Holder is applying some of his own life experience, and genuinely trying to help get rid of the problem by exposing it? Just because he’s middle-aged and well-dressed, that doesn’t make him not black.
Depends. You don’t have to be black to look like somebody the cops might want to pay extra attention to. What do/did you look like and act like?
Even if he didn’t address you in the manner of an English butler, likely his body language and tone would be polite. It would be authoritative, but not demeaning or oppressive.
If you’re white, you likely grew up able to play outside and not worry that a passing police car would stop and question you about what you’re doing. You could drive through any part of town without being worried about getting stopped just because you had white skin. If you had instead been hassled regularly by the police, then your body language would likely be different when approached by the police. You would likely be more wary, and this would likely cause the police to be more wary of you.
Likely, Brown’s interactions throughout life with police had been negative. So when Wilson approached him, Brown saw it as another policeman giving him a hard time. Because of this Brown reacts more defensively and aggressively than the situation warrants. Not to say that his reaction is justified, but it’s not surprising given the culture.
Various. From a long-haired 18-yo to 40-yo average guy. Police just do not start conversations with me with “Sir, would you mind…”. Or with anyone else I have ever heard.
Of course you do.
You are a fucking liar.
Regards,
Shodan
From the same Politico article you linked, the AP and the St Louis Post-Dispatch must also be attempting to try the case in the press.
*It has since been learned that Wilson is 28 years old and was born in Texas. The Associated Press has reported that he has Missouri hunting and fishing licenses, and that he owns a home in Crestwood, a suburb less than 20 miles southwest of Ferguson.
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported that Wilson bought the home in October 2013 with his girlfriend, a fellow police officer named Barbara*
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/darren-wilson-video-award-ferguson-110213.html?hp=r5