Would you allow exceptions of “common usage” for any of the other hate words?
I can certainly think of some common use exceptions right off the top of my head. I bet you can too.
Agreeing, and expanding on it.
People do sometimes use denigrating terminology without realizing it. The question is what they do when they’re told about it.
Years ago, I knew somebody who said in casual conversation that someone had tried to “Jew him down.” I said, “Did you Christian him back up?” He said “what?” and I said, “You said he tried to Jew you down. I asked whether you Christianed him back up.” He said “I never thought of it that way.” And he probably didn’t – it was just a phrase he’d heard, and used, his whole life; he didn’t think of it as having anything to do with Jews.
And he didn’t use it again; at least, not in my presence.
I used to use “Oriental”. I didn’t know it was offensive. When I found out that many people from various parts of Asia do think that it’s offensive, I quit using it. I didn’t ask for proof that every single person in Asia or of Asian ancestry thought it offensive. I didn’t go looking for examples of some person from Asia who had, at some point in the last century, used it themselves. I just quit using it, because I didn’t want to tick people off.
So it’s your position that the requests of women who you know in physical person are reasonable, but the requests of women on this message board are unreasonable?
Why do you think that’s a reasonable position?
It is culturally significant that these words are such common examples in our culture that they are used for people of any gender. That doesn’t mean that the cultural significance is not misogynist.
It’s an insult to call a man a “cunt” because a cunt is thought of as being something insulting in itself. Calling someone a “dick” carries less power precisely because dicks are thought of within the culture as something to be proud of. It comes across more as shorthand for “thinking with one’s dick doesn’t work out well” than as shorthand for “having a dick is in itself wrong and dirty”. However again I’d be perfectly happy to ditch both of them.
Try “kvetch(ing)”. Somebody who’s whining is probably kvetching; but it’s possible to kvetch without whining. I think the sense is closer.
This a dispute over what the word signifies in our culture. You claim it’s one thing; other people claim it’s something else.
“A cigar is just a cigar” is not an apt description here, because with that you’re implying that somehow your interpretation of the word’s significance is somehow more straightforward, and that other interpretations are more convoluted. That’s not the case.
Thanks, I wasn’t trying to find some back door to using hate speech here, it was a genuine question, and I’m glad I asked, since my intuition was wrong here.
Well, I don’t know if this is what you mean, but obviously “bitch” can literally mean a female dog, or the archaic slur “spade” can mean a garden implement.
I’ve had the exact same experience. It appears to be pretty common.
I did not say their requests were unreasonable. We’re just having a conversation on a topic that is of interest/import to those participating. If your expectation was that I should simply capitulate then this wouldn’t be a conversation, would it?
As stated previously, I’m actively re-evaluating my position. If I appear to be pushing back, consider the entire premise of these boards - to allow people to have these kinds of deeper conversations and examine each other’s premises.
I simply don’t consider these words the same way you do. But we’ve already done enough rounds of the ‘when is a cigar just a cigar’ conversation. I don’t expect we’ll reach agreement about this right now.
My PMs have been filled over the years with those women. I don’t get many PMs on this board, but almost all of them have to do with the misogyny on this board. MANY of those women don’t post here any longer. I don’t come here much at all any more - and the misogyny - and the ongoing excuses for tolerating the misogyny year after FUCKING GODDAMN year are part of the reason. The rape apologists and the “I’m just asking” and yes, the tolerance of the use of misogynistic language.
Its a shame, this can be a great community - but I’ve lost my tolerance at having to wade through the shit and watching the women near me just give up. So I swing through far less regularly to see if anything catches my eye.
It is really a shame that over the twenty years I’ve hung around here a number of women on this board have made the point about the word cunt repeatedly, and yet we are STILL HERE. Its spitting into the wind. Or its actually having a hateful nasty word thrown into your face over and over again, and when you say “guys, that isn’t a nice word and it hurts when you use it” having everyone say “well, it doesn’t REALLY hurt you that bad. I have this friend who is female who doesn’t think its that bad.” That’s gaslighting. Its mansplaining. Its disrespectful of hundreds of women who have come through here over twenty years who do have a problem with that word.
And what do you think of the person who responds to you by saying ‘I’m going to keep on saying that because in my universe it doesn’t mean anything about Jews’?
From my point of view, the conversation we’re having looks rather like this:
Multiple people: would you kindly quit using that specific language? It’s insulting/offensive to us.
QuickSilver: [PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A QUOTE FROM QUICKSILVER. It is instead the general sense I’m taking from QuickSilver’s posts in this thread.] Well, maybe. But first we have to have a lengthly and detailed discussion of every reason I can possibly think of why you should not, in my personal opinion, feel insulted/offended. And it’s entirely reasonable to expect you to need to have this discussion every . single . time any individual wants to have it; or else to shut up and expect to keep seeing/hearing the language, no matter how important it is to you to not have to hear/see it.
The classic statement about this is that when somebody asks you to quit stepping on their foot, the thing to do isn’t to stand there with your weight on their foot explaining at great length that you didn’t intend to step on their foot, you just happened to be walking that way for other reasons entirely, you didn’t even notice their foot, you don’t think there will actually be any significant injury from your having stepped on their foot, lots of people walk down that street without looking where they’re putting their feet, and so on and so on. It doesn’t matter a bit even when all of that is true. The thing to do is to Get Off Their Foot.
Understood.
I offer my sincere apology to everyone whom I’ve offended.
Thanks for your time and patience.
Be well.
Thank you!
(Said sincerely.)
Too late to edit:
I really should have credited that stepping-on-foot image. I didn’t use the same phrasing; but the general analogy seems to have been originated by Hershele Ostropoler, in a post that no longer appears to be up on the net.
I dont mind them banning those words, I dont use them much anyway. But last time, there was a huge outcry. Much gnashing of teeth when Ed tried to ban 'cunt".
And then of course, “dick” and “prick” should be banned. Or we are hypocrites.
So, sure, Ok by me, but it wont be pretty.
Nope, there’s no symmetry here. This is not about some theoretical abstract model of language, it’s about dealing the reality of our social history, the semantic baggage carried by certain words. There is no similar history of misandry conjured up by the use of those words. We might choose to avoid them for consistency, but they are not a problem in the same way.
It’s not pretty now.
“Pretty” isn’t always an option.
This is an awesome point, we’ll said.
I guess I was assuming that Max S. was assuming the husband to be white. After all, he talked about using racial slurs as a personal insult.
Yeah, the objection to “cunt” doesn’t go away because the target is evil. The objection to “cunt” is based on the semantic content of the insult.
Also, despite there being an anatomical parity between the terms “cunt” and “dick”, there is not a semantic equivalence. Terms like “dick” and “dickhead” are not saying “You have a dick, therefore you are worthless”, whereas, that is the root of what makes “cunt” an insult. So trying to make an equivalency between “cunt”/“bitch” and “dick”/“bastard” is a false equivalency.
Excellent! Well said!
Well, I will point out we’ve already had some examples, though you will determine for yourself is you think they qualify as misogynistic.
This whole post is excellent, but I wanted to emphasize this portion especially.
That’s awesome! I wish I had thought of that response. I was left (a) floundering because I didn’t know what the expression meant, and (b) floundering because of the obvious nature of the slur and that the speaker didn’t seem aware of it.
I will let your words round out my post.
Separated to address this specific line of argument.
It’s not about being “gender-specific” so much as being about the root of the insult.
As I said above, “cunt” and “dick” might be anatomically equivalent gender terms, but they are not semantic insult terms. Also, one conveys a much stronger level of contempt than the other.
Gah! I’m flabbergasted. “Nigger”* inherently shows hatred toward a class of people. The whole root of that insult is “you are Black, and thus subhuman”.
Okay, that at least gives me a bit of insight into your thinking.
This is more complicated than my initial reaction. Language evolves. One demonstration of that is that the words used as insults can shift meaning over time.
Take “bastard”: the original insult was based on the concept of birth legitimacy and the possibility of inheritance. Being born out of wedlock was an undesirable state because of the social ramifications, so it was a term used to insult a person. Over time, our society has stopped caring about the concept of legitimacy - now being born out of wedlock doesn’t mean much. Certain moral perspectives still frown upon it, but the status of being born out of wedlock does not carry any legal or social weight. Thus, the term “bastard” has shifted meaning to mean “a despicable person”, probably male.
Similarly, let’s consider “motherfucker”. To most people nowadays, that’s not really a literal accusation the person fucks their own mother. That element of the insult is so lost that some people have pondered why it’s an insult, as there are plenty of mothers whom are desirable to fuck. To many people, the word is simply an offensive word that people use to show anger and provide insult.
Okay, so that kind of meaning shift occurs. Let’s look at “nigger”. You seem to be proposing that the same kind of meaning shift has occurred, and that word is less about the historical root of it’s racial implication and more about being a word that causes shock and insult. Basically, it’s something a person can call someone and make them mad.
That’s not entirely outlandish. It is, I think, the underlying reason behind the term “nigga” being permeated in black culture. The idea is desensitization through overuse. And I have witnessed an encounter where I think the term was used not so much because the user was a raging racist as that he just wanted to insult and anger the black man he was addressing. So to some extent, there is an argument to be made that that process is occurring. To a degree.
However, I don’t think it’s that far along in the process. There may be some white subcultures where this attitude has started to spread, but I think the majority of people still see the historical and cultural baggage of the term. Basically, “You are inferior because you are Black.” And there are still plenty of raging racists out there using the term precisely for that reason. “Nigger” is not dissociated from it’s origin in the way “bastard” is.
Thus, to use “nigger” as an insult is inherently racist, and trying to use it just to insult one person without denigrating the whole class is not possible. The user may not mean to denigrate the whole class, but society as a whole views it that way. It is the basis of the insult. That word is not a generic make-you-feel-bad word the way asshole, dipshit, moron, bastard, shithead, etc. are.
Okay, this leads to a different discussion. You are applying the term “bitch” to reflect particular traits of behavior, as opposed to mere female status. There are other terms that are largely used in a gendered fashion, such as “gold-digger”. It is almost never used to refer to a man, it’s always about a woman.
This is a more justifiable position, IMO. In a lot of people’s mind, “bitch” is sort of the female analog to “bastard”. It has lost connection to the root of being a promiscuous woman and turned to a term reflecting a display of attitude. Also, there is a secondary slang use to refer to a person as being subsidiary: “I’ll make you my bitch.”
So an argument could be made that it is okay to have gendered terms for dastardly people, and use “bitch” and “bastard” as parallel terms. However, there is still an underlying misogyny in the same way that English usage has been pushed to reduce gender-specific terms. For example, “flight-attendant” replacing “steward” and “stewardess”. Although we still have a long way to go in that respect, as that shift is a hard one. We call women and men “Doctor”, but we refer to actresses and actors. We’re fading on the use of “comedienne” and shifting to a genderless “comedian”.
So right now, there is some attention being paid to casual misogyny, the kind of subconscious use of words that convey a disparity of status for women. And one place this stands out is in the use of insults. Thus, the bitch/bastard dichotomy, and the idea that bitch is typically a female insult term, and thus about being female rather than displaying mean behavior.
Now let’s bring this around to the 100 lb gorilla in the room, the main issue in the OP - “cunt”.
To be honest, this is not an insult I’ve run into in the “wild”. My encounters with that word as insult have been from this board, not through in-person encounters. So I don’t know if that’s because that word is perceived as too harsh even for someone who drop’s “motherfuckers” and “cocksuckers” everywhere, or if it is just a reflection of my geography and socio-economic status.
As such, I can’t really judge the statements that to Americans that word is perceived as out-of-bounds harsh. To this American, it’s just not a word encountered. So I will take the word of the women on the board who say it is indeed an extremely harsh insult word.
What I can perceive is that the root of the word is “you are a woman so you are worthless”. That is inherent bigotry against women as a class. Calling one woman a cunt, or calling a man a cunt, may to that speaker signify “this person behaves appallingly”, but it has an underlying connotation of “this person is a woman, and therefore inferior”. That’s the message that a lot of women receive from the word.
So in that way, it very much is the sexual equivalent of a slur just like racial slurs. And that is why I think we can eliminate the use of that word without necessarily eliminating the use of any gendered slur, such as dick, dickhead, prick, etc.
As for “sonofabitch”, it’s not a term I particularly use. While some people have made the mental disconnect of that word from “bitch”, to me that insult is essentially an insult against the recipient’s mother. It’s the white “yo’ mama”. It’s, once again, a term to enrage a person by insulting his mother.
- FWIW, I really feel shitty using that word so much in this post. Even though I’m only referring to the word, and specifying the word is important, I nevertheless feel bad using it. My apologies to anyone offended. It is not my desire to make anyone feel bad or that I think of anyone as inferior or subhuman because they are Black. It is sad that I have to stoop to this level of conversation to make the analogy in order to argue the point about “cunt”**.
** My apologies for using this word so much. It is the word we are addressing, but I still don’t like insulting women as a class, or being perceived as doing such.
This word is the worst thing about this board. I experience it as a disgusting insult to women in general and whoever it’s aimed at. As someone who sees no need to call anyone names, it also seems unnecessary. If invective is needed, creativity is more effective. Allowing this word is a great way to drive people from this board (which does not allow other group identity or group membership insults that are considered offensive in the US).
I normally don’t wade into these threads, and I’m not going to defend my visceral response, since nothing I can say will convince someone who thinks it’s necessary for their free expression, whatever that means in the context of a moderated message board that purports to support civility. The use of this word puts the standard of “don’t be a jerk” to the test, and this community fails that test.
Nice post.
If you use the phrase “the word ‘X’” consistently, it makes the use/mention distinction clearer, I feel. So only and ever "the word ‘nigger’: or “the word ‘cunt’”. Using just quotes like you did is a good move, but I think adding that “the word…” makes it even clearer you’re distancing yourself from usage.
I see, so how do we rank these insults on a semantic scale? How many points, and where is the cut off? Sure “dick” isnt as bad as 'cunt", but then 'wop" or “kike” arent as bad as “nigger”. (I’d rather use “n-word”, but since you post uses it over and over, no use to try avoiding it.)
I have never heard of ““you are a woman so you are worthless”.” it is always “you are a nasty or rude person, thus we are calling you a ‘c–t’”. Some nasty persons arent worthless at all.