Well, see my earlier post about insulin resistance for an explanation. That’s not a cite, of course, but it demonstrates the logic.
If you want a site, do a search on “insulin resistance” and “diabetes” or “syndrome x”.
Eh, I don’t know what you consider “extremely high in fiber and nutrients,” but neither celery or lettuce contain much more than water.
Maybe yours is, but I buy organic foods. I’ve never met an apple that was injected with growth hormone.
I don’t have much to add to this argument, other than that gut feeling that tells me that eating a diet extremely high in animal protein, fat, hormones, etc couldn’t possibly be any healthier than a diet consisting entirely of whole grains, legumes, fruits, and veggies. No supporting evidence other than common sense. You may lose weight on the Atkins diet (is losing that much weight in such a short period of time really okay for your body?) as many do, but I would never subject my body to such a thing without knowing the long term effects. I’ve been on a modified vegan diet for a little less than a month–again, whole grains, legumes, fruits and veggies, no animal products of any kind or oils–and have lost nearly twenty pounds. Obviously, few people have the willpower to eat a strictly vegan diet for any length of time. If all I cared about was my body fat content, maybe I would give the Atkins diet a try. It certainly sounds like much less effort than what I’m doing now. But until I see definite long term studies, there’s no way you’d convince me its a good idea.
Peace,
~mixie
Well, you stick to your “gut feelings”, I will stick to the opinions and facts that medical professionals give. That and common sense based off of facts, not feelings.
http://www.produceoasis.com/Items_folder/Vegetables/Celery.html
http://www.produceoasis.com/Items_folder/Vegetables/Iceberg.html
Daily recommended fiber intake is 25g.
Epimetheus, your responses are extremely hostile when I only mean to do good. Is that how your diet affects you? Sorry, couldn’t resist.
How come the only doctors/studies you feel are worthwhile are those that support your claims? Some of the problems I have mentioned stemming from the high protein, very low carb diet have been studied and witnessed by qualified MDs, registered dieticians, etc…like Dr. John McDougall, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Dean Ornish. I actually do have an open mind and read all sides of the issue. I enjoy research and have more than once used my body as lab.
You want proof that the Atkins Diet fad died out after its initial popularity in the 1970’s? Well, it IS a fact. Dr. Atkins didn’t reappear into the public eye (in a big way) until 5 years ago or so. Did you hear a lot about Atkins in 1990? I don’t think you did.
And about eating grains and cooking things being unnatural, I agree with you, actually…and that is why I am attempting raw foodism at this time.
Note: Dr. Atkins is himself overweight. Why is that?
In truth,
Atheria
If it is truth Atheria, then please provide cites. You know, links or titles of books so that I can see the validity of your points.
You know, other than from a veg site. Notice my link wasn’t from atkins home page?
Of course all the evidence that I have comes from people that agree with my side. You see, I don’t form an opinion and then find sites that agree with me, I did research and my opinion was formed from them.
You keep saying these things but are not providing evidence.
No doubt the studies you have read are about a ketosis diet, which is probably why you are reluctant to show all this evidence you have done research on. If you want more links I can provide them. You see, as a bodybuilder and a fitness freak, diet is a major part of my life, and I have put in thousands of hours of research into designing the healthiest diet and exercise routines.
Your claims are nothing more than unvalidated opnions at this point, at least until you provide some sort of citation.
My one experience with dieting was a 6 week Candida diet, to get rid of an internal yeast bacteria infection. Potatoes, sauces, sugar, soya sauce, processed meats, wheat bread, tomatoes, were some of the things that I remember being out. Things that didn’t feed the yeast were okay, and I could eat as much of it as I wanted. One thing I lived a lot on for the 6 weeks was rice. My bread was rice bread, too. Fish, meat, eggs, egg noodles, veggies, were also a good part of the diet. I lost 20+ lbs in the 6 weeks, although I wasn’t particularly overweight for my frame. (Went from about 210 to a little under 190.) I felt great for many months after, and it took some time for the weight to return. It was a tough diet to stick with, though. Especially when others around me were loading up with what I couldn’t have.
I have not really been too clear I suppose: I don’t advocate or condone the ketosis, less than 50g of carbohydrate type diets. When I say low carb diet, I mean 30-40% of total calories comming from carbs, low GI, HEALTHY carbs. No pastas, no potatoes, no breads. (though an occasional tortilla isn’t so bad)
Healthy Carbs, that I include in my diet, are of course vegetables, apples, banannas, tortillas (once in awhile), brown rice, sweet potatoes, old fashion oatmeal, etc. Protien should be no more than 30% of your diet should be protein, and 30-40% should be essential fats, with no more than 10% being saturated fats. Refined sugars should be avoided at any cost. Large amounts of sugars, such as is in OJ, should also be avoided, with sugars consisting of a maximum of 10% of your original Carbo intake. 5% is better.
I am not a big fan of the 0 carb diet, just because it is very hard to be active with no energy, and lifting weights, running, etc is very hard with no quick carbs. I certainly think everybody should weightlift some and run/bike, and putting somebody on a diet like this detracts people from exercise because it drains them quickly.
It’s not “common sense”, in that your gut feelings come to you not from reasonable analysis, but the simple fact that you’ve heard “fat = bad” 5,000,000,000 times. Of course anything contradicts that is going to give you a “gut feeling” of being wrong.
It strikes my “gut feeling” that the idea that catching a rabbit and eating it is less natural and healthy than harvesting grains and processing them into something refined and edible.
Epimetheus, I assumed all along you were talking about a ketosis inducing diet, yes. When I read what you do eat, your diet seems more “The Zone” to me with a better ratio of protein, fats, and carbos.
I personally am vegan, yes, but I also have curiosity and really do read all sides of health issues. I haven’t posted links because, quite frankly, I’m not even supposed to be online THIS long…let alone the time it would take me to find all the tons of articles and research I’ve read. I do use generalizations, but that is only because I’ve read too much and it’s extremely difficult in this format to give a hundred specifics.
Although I used to be a big fan (and did lose weight) of the ultra high carbo, VERY lowfat diet…I developed problems with it. I also used to be a HUGE fan of soy everything. I later found out soy was the culprit in my hormone problems. So, you see, I do seek the truth. I believe that my body needs more protein than some other vegans say you need. I know I feel better when I eat extra nuts and tahini. I also know my digestive system functions better on less grains (right now, none) and get my carbos from fruit and veggies. I tend to have hypoglycemia (mother is diabetic) and have blood sugar drops if I eat lots of starch with no fats…that’s why I don’t do that anymore.
To a certain degree, the old motto “moderation in everything” is true…but when I see my mother’s horrible arthritis clear up after getting off dairy products, that to me is my proof that dairy isn’t good for anyone except a baby cow (for example).
On her deathbead, Jill Ireland blamed her cancer on her history of high protein/low carb diets (to keep trim for the film industry). I don’t think it’s a coincidence that while Suzanne Somers was on Oprah bragging about the cheese burgers and bacon she eats (without the bun, of course)…she had cancer growing in her breast. The wife of my chiropractor cured herself of cancer via a raw food vegan diet…and so did Dr. Lorraine Day www.drday.com
Maybe I shouldn’t care about strangers as much as I do, but I can’t help it. I have witnessed people go through horrid illnesses due to their eggs, cheese, and steak diets. It’s not pretty and I would like to stop others before they succumb.
Regarding the French woman who lived to be 122, I don’t think her alcohol drinking and dessert eating would count as being low glycemic. A large part of longevity has to do with happiness and loving your particular life and work.
In truth,
Atheria
Your last post makes a whole lot more sense to me in terms of diet than any standard Atkins diet I’ve ever heard. I’m a little unclear on why you seemed to be arguing in favor of eating nothing but cheeseburgers, bacon, and veggies when your dietary plan really doesn’t support that view.
these statements especially:
I have not really been too clear I suppose: I don’t advocate or condone the ketosis, less than 50g of carbohydrate type diets.
and
** I am not a big fan of the 0 carb diet, just because it is very hard to be active with no energy…**
I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with the rest of your post. I just find it amusing that you’re not really arguing for what we are arguing against, heh.
As for the gut feeling thing, that comes mostly from everything I’ve ever read on the subject of nutrition that did not seem agenda laden and rediculous sounding, as well as numerous discussions with my doctor, and the few nutrition courses I’ve taken during my tenure at this esteemed university. ‘Gut feeling’ meaning no specific cites or sources of information at hand, just assimilation of everything I can sort out to be as true as I understand it. For example, given a choice between two weight loss/health theories–
[gross oversimplification] “fill your diet with whole grains and veggies, excercise, and burn more calories than you take in” and “if you eat a lot of bacon and cheeseburgers and no simple carbs, you’ll force your body into a state of ketosis.” [/gross oversimplification]
I will choose the one that makes more sense to ME given the information I have at hand. Like I said, opting for the cheeseburgers might be easier, more fun, and take less willpower, but until I see studies outlining the long-term effects of such a diet, there’s no way you can convince me its a good idea.
Peace,
~mixie
Must say i have a hard time understanding the basis for your diet…what elements does rice have that say bread doesnt?? They are both almost pure carbs.Same with potatoes. Then you throw tomatoes in and i cant seem to foloow the ogic behind that at all. The term" feeding the yeast" also means nothing to me. Tomatoes feed yeast and so does bread but rice DOESNT…umm HUH??
I have many problems with this post. #1 What someone blames for thier death on can be completly irrelevant. My grandmother blamed her stroke on a bad batch of strawberrys and cream. #2 Your mother having arthritis clear up after stopping comsumptiuon of dairy is NOT compulsive evidence that dairy is bad for everyone. The logic leap you take there is fundamentally flawed.#3 Another thing im confused about is you stated your blood sugar DROPS if you eat too many starches without fats. Since starch is a fairly simple sugar i find this quite frankly hard to believe. Please cite the examples of “horrid illnesses” due to eggs cheese and steak. In fact the whole point of this entire thread is the debate that this combo of foods is BETTER for you. If you dont think so again we have to go back to citeing your info because i am quite frankly challenging your complete premise. #4 In this case at least for myself" moderation in everything" is NOT best for i seem to be extremly sensative to carbs and cannot achieve anything resembling ketosis without a VERY strict curb on my salad dressings<not for the fat content but for the sugar> ketsups etc. In fact as an aside it seems to me your other “alernative diets” seem to have caused you a great deal of distress.
I think the cheesburgers, bacon and vegies is just a common sterotype of the low carb diet. Just like when people say cut your carbs, people tend to jump to the extreme and assume they mean completely. I dunno why this is, perhaps because of the hype of the new “diet” fad. When I think diet, I just think of what I eat every day, not as in “going on a diet for a few months to lose some weight”.
I did try the really low carb diet for awhile, (under 100g a day) some bodybuilder suggest it while cutting, but I ran out of energy and had trouble dragging myself to the gym even 3 times a week. I also got tired of the expensive costs that alot of beef, cheese, beef jerky, and bacon cost me. (when you are eating close to 4k calories a day it is alot of food)
I do eat alot of meat; tuna, chicken, pork, beef, shrimp, etc, so I do defend statements about them being bad for you, mostly because I have not seen any real evidence that they are bad for you. They are calorie dense and tasty, which is a great combo when you are trying to find a calorie filler for a meal, that isn’t a bunch of junk carbos.
Not all carbs are created equal. Some cause a sudden increase in blood sugar, and some are a slower process. This is where the GI index is a good indicator of what is good. Brown rice has a pretty low GI index (59 or so) while white rice is around 91. White and whole wheat bread are the same at 72. Which means white rice is actually worse for you (bigger sugar rush, more insulin released) than bread. A good index for some common foods can be found here: http://www.diabetesnet.com/diabetes_food_diet/glycemic_index.php
Some people do have problems with milk, for these people I agree that they shouldn’t drink it. Not everybody has these problems. You seem to create patterns in cause in effect in these people by what they eat. I doubt very much that eating steaks is what caused Suzan Somers cancer. Without actual scientific evidence, or even a doctors concession, this is pure speculation and falling for a cause and effect fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/confusing-cause-and-effect.html
Atheria-on this site, you have to back up your claims with sources (books, links, etc). Just saying, “I KNOW this…” isn’t enough. YOu won’t last long around here otherwise.
Now, I have a question-I have no interest in trying these diets-but um, what do DOCTORS say about Atkins? I mean, weight loss doesn’t always equal healthy, if you know what I mean.
And I can’t see that lots of steak, cheese, bacon, and fatty foods are going to be healthy in the long run.
Note-a person may have to watch their carb intake. THAT much I understand. However, I don’t see how loading up on fatty foods is going to be healthy. You may lose weight, but what about your arteries, blood pressure, heart, etc?
Guinastasia…thats the beauty of the diet. If you read the CNN link at the top of the article it discusses how your good colesteral improves and your bad decreases. It also is healthy for your heart because due to weight loss your not carrying around a few thousand extra miles of capilaries that your heart has to pump blood thru.
Try this site for some views from both sides about various low carb diets:
http://www.lowcarb.ca/
Guin: Elevated levels of insulin can cause problems with blood pressure, heard disease, and other problems. (like calcium deficiencies) It has been shown that dietary cholestoral does not add to blood cholestoral. Not signifgantly anyhow. cite:
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1997;65:1747-1764)
Fats do not add signifigantly more danger to any of those problems than do carbs, less I would imagine. Too many problems with fat free foods. http://www.foodandhealing.com/article-fatfreebad.htm
Like is stated in my link earlier by Dr. Rosedale: There are quite a few essentual fatty acids, there are no essential carbs. (except for general energy purposes-I added that, not from him) I think it is just a common myth, and is so prevelant because it is said so often, that fatty foods are bad for you, and that eating steak and bacon and such is bad for you. Eating JUST those are definately, combining those with a healthy diet isn’t. Just another common myth, people looking for an easy answer, when it is more complex than that.
Jonpluc, the reason why in my body (and other hypoglycemics) my blood sugar DROPS after eating too much sugars (no matter what form…candy or rice) is because my body over-responds initially and shoots out too much insulin. At FIRST, my blood sugar goes up…but then 2-3 hours later my blood sugar drops like a bowling ball from the Empire State Building. Through trial and error, I have learned that if I eat fats with the carbohydrate (which slows down digestion and systemic response) my sugar levels stay stable.
I put two and two together. Using my mother as an example, her arthritic pains went away and she dropped weight within 5 days of getting off animal products. She continued feeling better and losing weight for a couple of months. She got bored and went back to her old eating habits and within 3 days her arthritic pain came back. NOTHING else in her diet or medication or life changed, except that she put meat, lots of dairy, and chicken back into her diet. She also ended up gaining all the weight back and more. Believe me when I say that is upsetting…that someone loves cheeseburgers more than feeling good.
When I was on a high meat, low carbo diet years ago I developed kidney pain that was pretty bad…just like a friend of mine who was on the same plan did. When we quit eating like that, our pains went away…never to return. Why do I have to give a web site with some study on it to show that?
I always seek personal proof. No “expert” out there is truly an expert. That being said, I do respect the work and study of the men I mentioned earlier, as well as Dr. Andrew Weil and Gary Null.
Atheria
Interesting man, Dr. Weil.
I’m taking care of a newly-diagnosed kidney-failure patient (WinkieHubby), and I can tell you that food, especially fruits and vegetables, have a LOT of potassium.
From the chart on the frig:
1 cup skim milk = 412 mm potassium
4 oz orange juice = 248 mg potassium
1/2 cup frozen spinach = 283 mg potassium
1/2 medium grapefruit = 167 mg potassium
1 medium banana = 451 mg potassium
Meat and eggs are lower in potassium than fruits and vegetables. So, it makes sense that if you are cutting out the fruits and veggies, you’ve gotta get it back in supplements. Potassium is one of the nutrients that helps regulate the heart, so it’s pretty important.
I now return you to your regularly-scheduled diet debate.