Firearms for women

For the full story on S&W’s deal with the Clinton Administration, HUD and other cities, see: http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/jeffsnyder.html
The provisions of the deal are much more than mere ‘supplying trigger locks’ and other esoterica.

The first couple generations of S&W automatics (M39, M639, et al) were rather unreliable and prone to breakage. Recent models (anything with a 4 digit model number, M457, M908, and siblings) are much more reliable and well built, but have poor triggers and a bunch of annoying ‘safety’ devices (magazine disconnect, bobbed hammer, decocking/safety lever in absolutely the wrong place, etc) that make the piece difficult to use effectively.

There is also the Glock imitation line called the ‘Sigma’, which have polymer frames and double-action triggers. I’ve heard mixed reports about the reliability of these models, however the itsy bitsy 380 ACP Sigma has a strong following.

I don’t like 'em much. :slight_smile:

–pdb

‘Invade a home
and invite a bullet’

Yeah…I know. It’s SC and you live in Colorado. It’s interesting to keep up on other states though.
And about S&W…

If it were about trigger locks, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

FWIW…When I bought my S&W they were already including trigger locks with every purchase voluntarily. In addition, the gun shop I bought it at voluntarily included free trigger locks for the other weapons I purchased that day. (I’m in NJ)
The S&W thing revolves around extra restrictions being placed on the sale of firearms. Of course, none of these restrictions can get themselves passed as laws, so we have the backdoor approach of legislating through the judicial system. I think the most offensive part of the agreement was that it affected ALL guns sold by a dealer, not just S&W guns.
Here is a link to the actual agreement:

http://www.hud.gov/pressrel/gunagree.html

…and here are some of the details that piss some of us(alot actually) off.

(man, I forgot how bad they sold out)

I didn’t want to turn this excellent thread into a Great Debate about gun control, company policies, etc. Please forgive me if I started it in that direction.

I just wanted to say that S&W revolvers are excellent machines with a long and outstanding record. I don’t know enough about their automatics to comment on them.

Techchick, please let us know how the search prgresses.

Since you seem to fairly cautious about the size of the gun you should be sure to try to see how well you can fire the gun as a reaction. Since you are getting it for home defense if it does end up becoming nesasary to use, it would likely be in a dark situation, with a swing and fire, rather than good aiming. As stupid as it sounds you can miss from 10 feet away, especially with something snub-nosed, and with the adrenaline it would only be worse it’d imagine. Just test to make sure that it shoots basically where it feels like it ‘should’ if you can’t see the sights.

I still have yet to print this out…maybe I can at my brother’s house this weekend. There’s a lot of information to read through and I think that if I print this off I can sit back and absorb it better and make notes.

I have pretty much already resolved not to buy an S&W even before I started this thread, from a political reason but didn’t want to bring it up in this thread.

SO, on that note, if anyone has more information, go ahead but if ya’ll gotta discuss/debate S&W please open a GD thread. :wink: Mucho appreciated.

< wow, looks like it’s going to be an edcuational weekend for me! >

Thanks again for all your information!

I agree with the shotgun idea. I would go so far as to say definately get a pumpaction. The sound of a shotgun being racked (sliding the forestock to chamber a shell etc) is very distinct. You probably won’t ever have to pull the trigger in self defense, it’s just so damn intimidating.

if you’re definately set on a pistol, try out a walther ppk .32 it has a small frame, low kick and is very reliable. plus it actually has some stopping power (albeit not much)

Hey!

One more thing I forgot to mention: you might want to consider night sights, like those offered by Trijicon. They’re basically three little cylinders (two in the rear sight, one in front) filled with tritium gas (exploded view). They glow even when not exposed to light first, which makes lining up a shot in low-light or no-light conditions easier. They say they’ll last for at least 12 years. My Sig has night sights, and they’re pretty cool.

First off, you need a gun for EXACTLY the same reason the police do: To defend your life by deadly force should it prove necessary.

Second, nearly everyone fliches when they first start shooting. It’s a reflex you have to learn to overcome no matter what gun you use. Everything from a .22 short to a .454 Casull can by overcome with practice.

I highly recommend 9mm or larger. 9 is pretty much universal, doesn’t kick too badly and there are a wide range of bullet designs styles that can increase its effectiveness.

Also, the small-frame Berettas in 9 mm are excellent. I personally carry a Beretta 92FS. That’s the full frame version and I’ve never had a bit of trouble with it.

The Beretta is available as a single/double or double action only. I suggest the single/double, since you said you don’t have a lot of strength. Repeatedly pulling the longer trigger on a double action only is tiring whoever you are and may discourage you from practicing as much as you should.

The mini-series Glocks are also great guns. Very ergonomic and as reliable as the Beretta. The Glock 30 someone mentioned is a .45 and has a fairly serious kick to it. The 9mm version (the 26 or 27, I can’t remember) is a sweet little piece.

What not to buy:

Stay away from S&W. Their quality control is sketchy at best for anything made after 1985.

Sig Sauers are highly accurate but are prone to feed problems in my experience.

Colt metallurgy has been in the toilet for years and their QA dept misses more than it catches.

Don’t settle for cheap. A gun is an investment you’re making to one day save your life. Spent the money on quality. You’ll never regret buying Beretta, Glock, HK or Taurus.

Also, I assume that you will want an autoloader, rather than a revolver, just because they’re more comfortable to carry, have more rounds and take less strength to operate as a rule.

All that being said, don’t sell yourself too short. My wife is a small woman (5’2"), not very strong, with pretty small hands, and she carries a Glock 21. That’s the full-sized .45. She’s also a damn fair shot with it.

Before you make any final decisions, go to a range or gun club that has rentals and try out as many as you want to, to get a feel for exactly what you want and what feels best.

Keep your powder dry.

I will have to agree with pretty much everything Anthracite and Johnny LA had to say in regards to shotguns, and would like to reccomend a specific model and give you a few reasons:

The Mossberg model 900 “Intimidator”; features of this model include easily removed plug so you can have 5 rouds of standard 2 1/2" ammo (just fine for indoors and self defense) plus one in the pipe if you so choose (there is a sturdy and easily actuated safety), the stock is easily replaced with an inexpensive folding or pistol grip style (I’ll touch on that in a moment), the caliber is .12 gauge, also this model comes with a laser sight on the foregrip which will make most intruders shit themselves if they were deaf to the “clak-clack” sound of a round being chambered and allowed you to get off at least one well aimed shot with ease. The gun is also very inexpensive and intended for use as a riot or home defense gun, not a bird gun that can substitute. The long barrel of most game guns is a real hazard in home defence when you have to pass through doorways or if an assailant might grab it away from you.

In regards to recoil: The .12 gauge has a load of kick BUT as I mentioned you can go with a pistol grip on this gun which with some practice maked the recoil almost meaningless. Hell, I don’t even like to shoot regular bird guns because of the recoil but my Mossberg is nothing at all to shoot.

I would also say that while a shotgun is my ideal of a home defense weapon and you are wise to think in those terms, you might also wish to consider having a handgun and a concealed weapon liscence (not too hard to get in most states unless you are a felon, can’t pass the NRA test, and can’t find two people not related to you to vouch for your charachter), simply because while home intrusions are a bad thing, most assaults still occur outside the home and that shotgun isn’t worth a shit in the closet while you are in a dark parking garage somewhere.

For a pistol I will flatly reject revolvers for several reasons: At most you have 7 rounds (the new Ruger chambered for the .22 cal Hornet round is a 7 rd revolver) but more often 6 rounds. I’m a pretty good shot, but my aim goes to hell when the range is crowded and I forgot my ear protection so I can only imagine what would happen to my aim if I was in actual danger. If you do manage to hit your assailant with one or even two of your rounds what if he has buddies?

As for semi auto handguns: They are not the pieces of crap they used to be (in fact most of them were good it’s just that a lot of people either didn’t take proper care of them or there were a few cheapo pimp-guns out there giving the rest a bad rep). I resisted making the purchase of an auto for anything other than a fun range gun because I believed this to be true for years. I have owned my Baretta 92F for well over 6 years and put in excess of 1000 rounds through it with never one problem before it dawned on me that it was better than all my revolvers for most purposes other than “BANG” (it being a 9MM and most of my revolvers being .357), so tow weeks ago when I went gun shopping for my “new toy” I bought a S&W .40 Cal as my new carrying gun (I like the power of a .40 cal but a .9mm is still a fine gun). Also because the gun market is really opening up to ladies you can find a great assortment of guns designed as either “secondary” weapons for law enforcement types and are thus smaller in frame size or quite a few guns designed specifically for women. My Baretta 92F was actually designed to replace the model 92 carried by military police because the old model 92 was generally too large for the hands of female MPs’.

I would stay away from Glocks for one main reason: trigger safety is a bad concept. Glocks don’t have a standard mechanical safety, and while some other guns have trigger safety’s as well (my S&W for example) with Glock’s it is universal. Some people have suggested that with a revolver it is easier to get one off in a hurry. This is only true if you don’t keep a round chambered which I do with my .92F and is quite safe (standard disclaimer you should never do that blah blah blah. Ask most cops if they keep one in the pipe and if not bet they have the Glock) with the safety engaged.

Many autos are now double action, meaning you can chamber a round, gently lower the hammer, engage the safety and in a hurry all you have to do is release the safety and pull the trigger and it is ready to go that fast. With practice it becomes second nature.

Also H&K makes a true double action semi-auto pistol that you can chamber a round (cock the gun) by squeezing the grip itself (the model is called the P7 I think). They are a bit pricey (HK don’t come cheap) but a well made gun.

I’d say if you cary a purse or valise most of the time your best bet is the Baretta 92F, it’s light, easily modified (you can adda laser sight to the slide w/o even violating the warranty and trust me a laser is worth every penny) and can carry 15 round magazines (pre-ban is legal to own and buy just can’t manufacture or import them anymore) with one more in the pipe that gives you 16 shots to hit your targe(s) as opposed to the 6 rounds you have with a revolver, plus even with speed loaders revolvers take forever to load even if you are not shaking and terrified.

Also if you do decide to carry a pistol I suggest getting a special concealment bag for it unless you feel comfortable with a shoulder holster. Actually I think the purse holsters are better because if someone tries to take your bag from you, as is often the case, they remove the holster for you to find a nice little surprise painted at them in the one moment they are most distracted by your loot.

oh and one last thing, don’t go lighter than .38 or 9MM no matter what. a 9mm has little recoil in a well designed and fitted gun and is more likely to stop someone hopped up on dope than a .25 and is also much more likely to draw attention to your distress. a .25 sounds like a damned ladyfinger firecracker, that won’t even wake me up.

For by the bed: auto shotgun of any make. Remington is good. Just point in the general dirrection and you get results.

for carrying: I like the 22 long Revolver by northamerican arms. Very inconspicuous, big bang and deadly. The advantage is that you can carry it in your hand while going out to the car and no one will ever know. Getti9ng a gun out of your purse will take a lot of time and probably render the gun ineffective.

For a sidearm, I would recommend a .38 revolver. DOesn’t jam, small handle compared to an auto.

I use a .44 special bulldog pug. I think you would be able to shoot this too.

I am 5’4" with small hands. I have a bunch of favorite guns, but my two favorite handguns are:

  1. The gun in my nightstand is a Ruger SP101 revolver in .357. Practice is much nicer using .38s, but I really love the big boom the .357s make. Mine is double-action-only – I used to have huge gun phobias, and I’ve always felt more comfortable with the longer, harder trigger pull.

  2. The gun in Mr. Winkie’s nightstand is a Beretta 92FS in 9mm, with tritium nightsights and a laser sight. It is awfully big for my hands, but it shoots very smoothly and accurately at the range (even without the laser.) I love shooting it!

I also like my Sig P239 in 9mm for carrying – it fits my little hands very well, but for nightstand use I like both of the above better.

Let me second (and third and fourth, I think) the advice to go to gun shows, gun stores, go shooting with friends, etc. and see what feels good in your hands and what you enjoy shooting. Ask people at the range what they think of the guns they are shooting – most people are more than willing to tell you what they think. Good luck!!

My wife, 5’ 4" with small hands has no trouble with my Taurus Raging Bull Casull 454. This is a double action revolver holding five very potent casull 454 rounds, it weighs in at about 55 ounces or so. My wife can consistently get all five rounds into a a 3" circle at 30 yards in less than 30 seconds. The casull 454 round has excellent knock down power, I don’t care how big the guy is, he is going down when you hit him with one of these rounds. The weapons is very capable and doesn’t have the recoil one would expect from a large and powerful round such as the casull 454.

I presume that the original poster wanted to know about girl-friendly CARRY guns, rather than, say, what would be the best home defense weapon. For a carry gun, you want: 1) concealability, which means small size and light weight; and, 2) adequate stopping power.

For those of you who may be wondering about the qualifications of people who have responded to this topic, I am a person who is licensed to and routinely carries a concealed handgun. I have a sister who is a deputy sheriff and has consulted me about weaponry for off-duty carry.

After trying out various candidates for my lil’ sister, we settled on the Glock 26, and I got her one for an X-mas present. This pistol is very compact, and uses the same ammo (9x19mm) that her department uses for its duty weapon (the Glock 19). It is absolutely reliable and shoots very straight, with an excellent DA trigger pull and decent felt recoil.

For those who recommend .22LR and .25ACP mouseguns, the only thing I can say about these is that they are eminently concealable. I have a .22LR Baretta Bobcat that makes a great “backup” gun that I could conceal while wearing only swimshorts… I would not count on its ability to stop a threat unless you were a James Bond who could reliably place a shot to the brain through the eye socket.

The minimum caliber pistol for reliable stopping power is .38/9mm. Nothing beats the .45 ACP, but the .38/9mm will do. The Glock 26 is about the best current pistol for gals who wish to pack, in my opinion. There are other makes, such as the Kahr, walther PPK, etc.

If you choose the 9mm, consider the 147gr JHP loads, especially Federal and the Speer Gold Dot.

No, she stated about a fourth of the way down the first page that she was interested in home defense, not carrying.

Really? Not my Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum with 240 grain load? Sounds like we have a challenge here… :wink:

Actually, you’re wrong on this one. Unfortunate and stupid as it is, the common prosecutorial track in cases where anti-gun DAs have prosecuted for self-defense is that if your intention were to stop the person and you did not kill him or her, then the use of deadly force was not justified; less lethal means would have sufficed. You are far more likely to be incarcerated if you shoot to wound or stop than if you shoot to kill.

This isn’t just me babbling because I want a high bad guy body count. The Alan Korwin book “The Arizona Gun Owners Guide” and “Gun Laws of Amercia”, several essays by noted 2nd Amendment lawyer Stephen Holbrook and every training class I’ve taken have raised the same point.

It’s a damnable pity, but he second rule of gunfighting, macabre as it is, holds true: “Claim self defense and leave no witnesses.” The first rule being, of course, “Have a gun.”

As to shotguns, I agree they are the best for home defense. I personally have a Mossberg 20 ga. pump action for that purpose. I have to disagree as to your load choice, though. Several cases have occurred in which a heavy leather jacket was sufficient to stop #8 shot. Go with either a #4 or a #2. You get a few more pellets per shell than 00 and it’s less likely to penetrate walls, but far more likely to adequately handle the task at hand.

I recommend either a pump action or a semi auto. There is a sound reason for this: Higher deterrence factor that may eliminate the need to shoot that bastard, which is ideally what you want, of course. No one in their right mind (and very few people in their wrong minds) will argue with the sound of a riot gun chambering.

If you use a handgun, frangible rounds are far superior to solids, particularly for home defense. I personally use Hydra-Shok. They are less likely to go through a wall or exit the body of the bad buy, thereby minimizing risk to innocents. They also are far less likely to ricochet.

I don’t know if, with all the post-Columbine silliness that has ensued, this is the case, but Colorado was an open-carry state a few years ago. Permit required for concealed, none for open carry.

It’s that way in Arizona. Given my own broad libertarian / contrarian streak, I refuse to get a permit. As a result, I put my Beretta in a tactical or belt holster where all the world can see it and go about my daily business. The only restrictions on carrying openly are: You can’t carry in a bar or anyplace that serves liquor, and you can’t carry on someone else’s private property if they request that you don’t.

Colorado’s law used to be similar. It would certainly be worth checking into as an alternative to getting permitted.

Just a little reminder…no debating. :wink:

For what it’s worth, we have the “Make My Day” law here in Colorado, pretty much by breaking and entering you have subjected yourself to the possiblity that a home owner could seriously harm or kill you on that alone. I am sure the law goes deeper but a man in my subdivision did that a while back and they didn’t file any charges on him. He did kill one intruder and two ended up in the hospital in Pueblo – they fled.

I don’t think I could ever want to shoot to kill, but to stop the mo fo in his tracks. That would be my intent to defend myself enough, praying I could get to a phone and call the police. If I feared that much for my life, then I might want to shoot to kill but in my heart I could never wish death on anyone, even the worst of humankind. In either case. I do feel that to start out with a handgun and later get a rifle is where I am headed…besides I might enjoy going to the shooting range and meeting interesting people, variety is the spice of life.

FallenAngel,

I don’t think we are here. I do know that I have to have a permit to carry one in Colorado Springs or Denver so it may be a local issue. But it seems to me that you must tell a state cop, if stopped, that you have a concealed weapon or something like that.

The problem is they have closed the “Gun Show Loophole” defining a gun show where anyone with three or more people who gather to sell, trade or buy guns must be subjected to federal laws, aka, background checks. This takes effect in February…why oh why did I wake up this last week and not sooner? This will create a lot of illegal sales, four friends sitting in their living room enjoying a beer and football and decide they want to trade guns, but that’s a topic for debate…OY! Now you all have me doing it!

I take that back, as long as the weapon is in view, you can carry one…I was thinking about concealed.

One of my Libertarian buddies comes to the Libertarian meetings with his gun right on his hip. I misunderstood your post.