Firearms Question - Is Limp-Wristing a Real Phenomenon?

Factual Questions
1

I need to buy three handguns, and I’ve been reviewing several articles for months now (in addition to renting all sorts of guns to try out). One thing that keeps coming up in debates about how one gun performs (or lack performance) is a phenomenon of “limp-wristing.” “Limp-wristing”, as it’s described, is a tendency for a semi-auto handgun to jam or mis-feed due to not holding the gun properly.

To me, this sounds like bullshit flavoured with anecdotal confirmation bias. Does anyone know of actual testing (preferably, bench or double-blind) which has been done to confirm whether or not this phenomenon exists?

2

Here is some anecdotal evidence, on film.

It is claimed commonly enough that I have no doubt of its existence, it’s just never happened to me.

3

Not to nitpick that video too much after you went and made an effort to find it for me, but it seems to show one misfeed on the 92 (possibly due to magazine) and a Glock that didn’t work. Considering how many misfeeds and jams I see on the range every time I go there (never on my guns…) I don’t think that video presents any convincing evidence to me.

What’s the basic physical premise of the phenomenon? That the gun recoils back so much, relative to the speed of the extraction, that the extraction can’t clear the gun before the slide moves forward? It seems like a piss-poor gun that can’t kick a shell out with the extractor at enough velocity such that the slide can catch up with it even if the gun was hanging from a thread.

4

Since the only resistance to the function of the slide is the spring and the tension of the user’s grip, if the user fails to hold the weapon properly the mechanical force is used up over a longer period of time, meaning that there is not enough force left to overcome the spring tension. Any movement away from the plane of the slide moving on the frame uses energy that is necessary for cycling the action. It’s somewhat akin to dissipating the force of a car accident with crumple zones and SAFER barriers. You divert the energy and the force is not as great.

A bench test would be useless because it would provide the necessary clamping force, so you’re left with observation.

Everything that I have read shows that it is most common with women, which would lend credence to the idea that a weak grip (not to disparage women, but they often have a weaker grip) causes a failure to cycle.

5

[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
A bench test would be useless because it would provide the necessary clamping force, so you’re left with observation.
[/QUOTE]

I meant bench from a standpoint of simulation. Agreed that locking the gun rigidly would be counterproductive, I mean I wonder if there’s a magazine/journal which has done testing locked versus mounted on a damped pivot, for instance.

6

From Wiki Limp Wristing

I’ll add that I mostly shoot XD40s and have never had it happen to me, but I did own an XD45 that I had a problem with. I sold it and since obtained a Para Ordinance 45 and have no problems with it at all. No issues with my Kahr PM40 either.

7

May I add a question? I have no experience of guns whatsoever, and very very tiny wrists. Actually, I’m just a small person in general - 5’7’’ and I weigh 110lbs. My arms are like spindles.

Would this be a serious handicap to me if I wanted to operate a handgun? Assume that I want to use it for defence, and thus need to be accurate and effective. Would the recoil from a “normal” handgun actually injure me?

Would I need to use a different technique from, well, normal-sized men?

8

Light guns of heavy caliber with strong springs will be more apt to do this under range conditions and not so much in a fire fight where the adrenaline is flowing and excitement is high as then a tight grip is more likely…

Back when ammo was cheaper and I had more money, it would even happen ti\o big ole me when I was just blazing away burning ammo and being sloppy. Dirty weapons up the rate also.

Those reasons are why it does not happen to you as you don’t do those things.

The gas operated M-1’s we had in the old days could be hung on string and the trigger pulled by string and they would cycle just fine… Hard to conceal carry for a small woman though…

9

My first handgun was a tiny .45, I forget the make, but the model was ‘Patriot’. It was designed to be a backup piece, really. It was forever jamming on me, and I suspect it was due to limp wristing. That was a combination of a tiny gun, huge cartridge (requiring a very stiff spring) and my inexperience.

PaulParkhead, I’m 5’6", 160 lbs, with spindly arms, and I fire a full size 1911 with no problems. Other than having to break grip to work the slide release. Small hands.

10

I’m a qualified Range Safety Officer, and based on my years of observations and experience, “limp-wristing” is a real but not overly widespread phenomenon.

The most common gun I noticed people having “limp-wristing” problems with were M1911s (.45 and 9mm models), which have a grip safety that can sometimes fail to disengage if the gun is gripped incorrectly- I remember one shooter who was having trouble with his 9mm Springfield M1911, noticing it was jamming and mis-firing every couple of shots. I put an entire magazine through it with no problems, and then he took the gun and tried the same thing (with cartridges from the same box of ammo) and got jams and mis-fires. We repeated it, with the same results (OK for me, problems for him) before I finally worked out he wasn’t gripping the butt strongly enough to properly disengage the grip safety. He was able to get some sort of finger-grip add-on for his pistol that meant he was able to disengage the grip safety properly, and we was a happy shooter from there.

I’ve seen “limp-wristing” occasionally with small-framed people firing Glock 17s, Ruger P90s, and (rarely) Beretta M92s as well. I’d like to say it’s something about it being due to frame harmonics and recoil interaction, but it would be a combination of the worst parts of “Making Shit Up” and “Sounding Like A Pretentious Wanker”, so instead I’ll just leave my experiences regarding the phenomenon as anecdotes… from the Twilight Zone. :smiley:

11

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
May I add a question? I have no experience of guns whatsoever, and very very tiny wrists. Actually, I’m just a small person in general - 5’7’’ and I weigh 110lbs. My arms are like spindles.

Would this be a serious handicap to me if I wanted to operate a handgun? Assume that I want to use it for defence, and thus need to be accurate and effective. Would the recoil from a “normal” handgun actually injure me?

Would I need to use a different technique from, well, normal-sized men?
[/QUOTE]

Paul

I’m 5’5" and 126 pounds (on a good day…) and I can comfortably fire my Ruger Super Redhawk .44 magnum without injury. It’s not comfortable, but I can go through a box of 50 rounds and not ache from it. Part of it is while I do have small hands, I did get the grip sized for me to fit right and be comfortable. My girl Fierra has slightly smaller hands (and is 5’5" and 100 pounds) and she loves firing the .44 magnum. Within any class of handguns there is an amazing array of sizes - something I’m finding as I’m looking for my CCW gun.

~

OK, it sounds like maybe there is something to limp-wristing. Interesting.

12

I had a friend who was having frequent (once every 10-20 rounds) feeding issues with his sig pro. Whenever any of us fired it, it functioned without a problem. After watching him shoot more, I thought it was due to limp wristing - not exactly limp, but his hand moved too much during his normal shooting action.

I can’t remember if he corrected the issue, though… I can only remember that it would only malfunction for him.

13

In any event you want to minimize movement during firing to maintain accuracy. A proper grip works wonders for stability. In general, keep elbows and wrists as straight as possible.

14

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
May I add a question? I have no experience of guns whatsoever, and very very tiny wrists. Actually, I’m just a small person in general - 5’7’’ and I weigh 110lbs. My arms are like spindles.

Would this be a serious handicap to me if I wanted to operate a handgun? Assume that I want to use it for defence, and thus need to be accurate and effective. Would the recoil from a “normal” handgun actually injure me?

Would I need to use a different technique from, well, normal-sized men?
[/QUOTE]
I’ve average sized hands and the deciding factor for me would not be the recoil per se, but the grip size. I have no trouble with a 1911A1 but find a large capacity 9mm, like the Glock that kept jamming, was more of a handful than I liked.

Unasked for advice: If you’re just starting handgunning and if you contemplate using it in a defense situation and if you haven’t the time or inclination to shoot a couple thousand rounds so you will get thoroughly familiar with your weapon, I would recommend a wheel gun over an auto. Simpler to operate and much less likely to jam, limp wrist or not. True, you get only six rounds but if six won’t get you out of a pickle, eighteen probably won’t either.

15

Only anecdotal evidence to share, but I went to the firing range with my girlfriend and some other friends. She’s tiny, 5’2", 100lbs, and didn’t fire the .45 or the magnum, just the smaller calibers. The recoil definitely moves her hand a lot when firing. One of the 9mm semi-autos we tried jammed on her three or four times in 20 rounds. It didn’t jam on anyone else, and I think we fired it about 100 or 150. Her jams weren’t all sequential, either. It jammed twice, she handed it to someone else, we each took turns, and then she tried again, and it jammed again.

16

[QUOTE=DesertDog]

Unasked for advice: If you’re just starting handgunning and if you contemplate using it in a defense situation and if you haven’t the time or inclination to shoot a couple thousand rounds so you will get thoroughly familiar with your weapon, I would recommend a wheel gun over an auto. Simpler to operate and much less likely to jam, limp wrist or not. True, you get only six rounds but if six won’t get you out of a pickle, eighteen probably won’t either.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll heartily second this advice.

17

[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
I’m a qualified Range Safety Officer, and based on my years of observations and experience, “limp-wristing” is a real but not overly widespread phenomenon.
[/QUOTE]
Concur. It seems that sometimes people are taught not to hold the grip of the gun tightly (bizarre, I know) and this, plus a lack of grip and forearm strength tend to result in limp-wristing, especially with compact or polymer frame pistols. Of course, this also tends to result in a lot of wrist-hurting, too. As a general matter, you should grip a pistol as firmly as possible short of your hand shaking, and should maintain the same firmness of grip through the entire aiming and shooting motion, which will not only prevent limp-wristing but also promotes better trigger technique and resultant precision.

I’ve personally never been able to make a pistol limp-wrist reliably, though I did have a problem with a couple of Glocks that was likely a failure to grip it correctly. (In general, I don’t like the grip shape or angle of the Glock). I also had problems getting the grip safety to reliably engage on the 1911 when I was a child, but never had that problem as an adult even with my relatively small hands. I’ve trained a handful of women to shoot (mostly with Sigs, 1911, Taurus, and a Ruger P-89) and the only one that had problems was with the Taurus, which was due to an ejector spring failure, so I think it is more technique than size; of course, a pistol with a grip that is too large is going to be awkward for any shooter; I have some trouble getting good accuracy out of the Beretta 92/99, and really can’t manage something the size of a Bren 10 or Desert Eagle comfortably.

[QUOTE=DesertDog]
Unasked for advice: If you’re just starting handgunning and if you contemplate using it in a defense situation and if you haven’t the time or inclination to shoot a couple thousand rounds so you will get thoroughly familiar with your weapon, I would recommend a wheel gun over an auto. Simpler to operate and much less likely to jam, limp wrist or not. True, you get only six rounds but if six won’t get you out of a pickle, eighteen probably won’t either.
[/QUOTE]
This is good advice; however, a revovler is not bombproof. One can still experience jams, and the relatively exposed mechanism is more prone to damage. I would agree that the five or six rounds afforded by most revolvers are adequate for the vast majority of needs in self-defense, but I personally prefer autoloaders quite aside from the capacity and reload speed.

Color me slightly curious as to why the o.p. needs to buy three handguns. I’m not objecting, mind you, just wondering about the underlying requirement. I’ve personally only been able to shoot one at a time, but then, I only have two arms. :wink:

Stranger

18

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
Color me slightly curious as to why the o.p. needs to buy three handguns. I’m not objecting, mind you, just wondering about the underlying requirement. I’ve personally only been able to shoot one at a time, but then, I only have two arms.
[/QUOTE]

The “o.p.” needs the following: one new target pistol to replace an older one which is not the most accurate. And two CCH weapons as I’m about to get my license.

I’m not getting them all at once (although I may if I found the perfect weapons). But I am shopping with three ultimately in mind. Since I tend to do a lot of research into things, I’m shopping for all at once so I have less repeated effort. Sadly, this process of finding the best concealed carry handgun(s) for me has taken a long time, and may take quite a while longer. I happened to be looking at a Beretta Cheetah and had several people warn me about “limp wristing” etc. You can’t get more two people out of a hundred to agree on the best CC weapon for a small person with small hands who does not deal well with recoil.

19

I would recommend that, if possible, you try to fire each of the weapons you’re interested in. They are all different for different people, and anecdote makes no difference when you’re the person who has to handle it on a regular basis. The only sure way to know if it’s for you is to actually shoot the weapon, and at $500 or more, those are often risky investments to be wrong about.

See if a local range can rent you one, or if your friends will let you fire theirs.

20

Limp Wristing is more apted to be caused by poor form, and or lac of skill. It isn’t just because one is weak or small.
It happens often in shooting with the weak hand. This hand isn’t always weak, but isn’t used to combating the recoil. Like many things, muscle memory has to be learned, So we teach the hand how to shoot.