Firearms Question - Is Limp-Wristing a Real Phenomenon?

Factual Questions
21

Well, first of all the Cheetah (I assume you are referring to the models 84-86 in .380 ACP if you are carrying for self-defense) is a straight blowback gun and thus should be immune from limp-wristing, as the delay in action cycling is due strictly to the inertia of the slide and strength of the recoil spring. (Taurus also makes a virtual clone of this pistol as well.) The same is true of the Walther PP/PPK and clones of that pistol (SIG P230/232, HK-4, Bersa Thunder 380) and the CZ-83. I’m not too excited about the .380 ACP not only from a penetration and effectiveness standpoint but also because I find the recoil of this cartridge in a small blowback operated gun to be too snappy for my taste. (There is also the notorious hammer bite problem with the PPK.) The HK P7, using gas-retarded delayed blowback action should also be immune to limp-wristing and is a very compact gun for a 9mmP, although unfortunately out of production and somewhat expensive even in used condition.

If I were looking for a concealable pistol I’d probably go for one of the compact SIG (P229 or P220 Carry) or H&K P2000/P30 Compact. The Springfield XD Compact also seems to have a good reputation as a reliable improvement on the basic Glock design. If you really wanted a subcompact I’d look at the Sig P245/239, Springfield XD Subcompact, or Kel-Tec PF-9, though I think pistols that small are too punishing for regular practice and are too hard to control for repeat shots, so their utility is limited. (So, hopefully, is their necessity.) All of these pistols are noted for excellent reliability and, with proper grip control, should not exhibit a tendency toward limp wristing or any other operator-induced failures. As Airman Doors sugggests, your best bet is to try them out if possible.

On the other hand, a Ruger SP-101, Charter Arms Bulldog, or Colt Detective Special will never have problems with limp-wristing or feedjams (though it is possible to jam the cylinder by impact, requiring gunsmith or factory service to correct).

Good luck to you in whatever you decide on.

Stranger

22

When I was looking for a carry gun, I heard nothing but good things about Kahr arms. I handled a IIRC P9 at a gun store and it had very good balance and ergonomics and was small, suitable for a small hand. It was also very thin, which can be nice for carrying.

I ended up deciding to go with the best and got a USP compact if I was wearing suitable clothing for it and I had a Makarov for when I wasn’t. The USP is pretty much the best there is, IMO, but all models are probably too bulky for your frame to carry (conceal) effectively. Makarovs are cheap and reliable with decent ballistics… better than .380 and the ammo is cheap.

Something about the blowback guns - their recoil is going to be harder on your hand than you expect for the caliber. The makarov despite a pretty light 9x18 round has a sting to the recoil… probably not a problem, but something to consider if you were leaning towards .380 due to the expectation of a light recoil.

23

I’ve been trying out as many as I can rent, or borrow, but sadly the choices do get limited. I’ve rented or borrowed about…6 guns thus far, and found all of them to be unsatisfactory. I did fire the CZ mentioned and found it to be not too bad, although a little large. Reputedly, according to my CCH instructor, Kansas cracks down hard and without mercy on people who get “printed” as they called it (where a concealed firearm becomes noticed under clothing, etc.) and thus since I’m fairly thin and small, I’m limited in the size I can carry to what I can fit in my handbag safely, or say a pocket. In winter or if I always wore a jacket sure I could do more, but I’m guessing that I’m going to end up being stuck with something small. Yes, in theory Kansas has open carry but it is locally pre-empted by the police charging you with the generic “disorderly conduct” should you dare exercise it.

The new Ruger LCP seems interesting from that standpoint of very small and amenable to concealment. But probably too light for me to hold.

I have a practical mindset about this. I will not be a person who carries concealed all the time, ready to jump in and start firing. Or who is alway walking through life in “tactical alert.” I live in an area which has almost no violent crime to speak of, and let’s face it without much advanced training no one is going to be ready to draw and shoot in a snap situation. I do know however that every single “really bad situation” in my life was one where the situation had some time to develop. When I was raped there was maybe 5 or so minutes in which I could have done something to protect myself, had I any weapon (I’m not going to speak about the situation, you’ll just have to take my word for it). When I was held up both times at gunpoint, there was maybe 15 seconds to half a minute in which I knew there was impending doom coming, and I could have had time to get something out and be ready.

Sure, in the future who knows, maybe it will be a sudden grab from behind, etc. I’ll have to rely on my “spidey sense” and “relaxed awareness” or whatever, which I have developed a bit of over time, to try to avoid getting into that situation. The times I will be carrying will be, pretty much 100% of the time, when I go for walks/hikes on the local greenways, where there have been a couple of rapes/attempted rapes and assaults reported.

So with that in mind, and with the problem of making sure that the gun is always concealed and never “printed”) I have a tough choice. Small caliber so I can fire without flinching? Large caliber because when I need it I’ll need to stop someone? Larger sized like a Beretta 84 but much harder to carry, or ultra tiny like the Ruger LCP and able to carry anywhere? We get into IMHO territory here and I can tell a Moderator is about to move the thread, so I’m not asking those questions, I’m just giving some background on what I’m doing since asked. I did note that when I was doing the qualifying range shooting, the folks I was with had everything from .22 LR to .45ACP, and everything in-between. (the guy with the .22 had two jams during the qualifying - thats his CCH???)

24

Una,

I carry pretty much all the time and alternate between a S&W 642 and a Kahr PM40. Both of these are usually pocket carried in DeSantis Nemesis holsters. As long as my pants are not too tight across the leg it’s pretty much unnoticeable. And I’m a 265 pound guy. I sometimes carry with an IWB holster if my clothing choices permit.

One thing I like about the pocket carry is that a person can walk across a parking lot with their hand on the grip of their pistol and it doesn’t look out of place.

Depending in your style of dress this might work for you.

25

I’d also suggest the new Walther PPS for those looking for a good concealed carry gun… It’s rather thin and won’t print as easily, but still provides a decent size and is high quality. I have one to carry instead of my Glock 19 as I found it printed much too easily, especially when wearing T-shirts.

26

I had a much larger post the board software ate, so here is a synopsis before I go to work. I really don’t want this to seem like spam, but here are some information options I have found useful in deciding which personal firearm to purchase. Oh, and to answer your original post, Una, I have limp-wristed two semi-auto pistols. It was annoying, but a change in my grip solved the problem.

You may wish to take a look at www.corneredcat.com and www.thehighroad.org for suggestions about concealment. Cornered cat has particularly good suggestions for concealment options for females. www.smartcarry.com, has a certainly novel take on how to conceal a full-size pistol. Caliber conversion kits offer a way to lower the cost of practice, as well as lowering the recoil that Stranger mentions.

Lastly, I’d recommend reading some of the works of Jeff Cooper on his “color system” and mindset for carrying a defensive firearm, if only to dissuade people from the idea that concealed carry means jumping in and firing. I like the metaphor I’ve heard of a personal firearm being like the spare tire and jack in your car: you hope you never need it, but it is very nice to have when you do, and you don’t want the first time you’ve ever tried using it to be the time you actually need it. Also, if a place is so dangerous that you need a firearm, don’t go there. (Or bring a rifle, which is a whole 'nother discussion entirely.)

Best of luck with your firearms purchases. I’ve found shooting to be a really fun and relaxing hobby; I hope the same is true for you.

27

I didn’t realize just typing out the web addresses would produce viable links w/o additional HTML. I understand, mods, that direct linking if the subject may be NSFW is frowned upon—which firearms discussion group may be considered, depending on your work’s IT policies. Accordingly, as I do not seem to have the ability to edit my posts, would it be possible for you to break those links? Thanks.

28

Or you could just dress like this, allowing you to carry a an Auto Mag 280 or LAR Grizzly Longslide without notice. Provided, of course, you are a professional nature photographer. :wink:

Stranger

29

I just thought I’d throw another anecdote into the mix. I own a 10mm Glock 20 which is very easily limp-wristed. It’s happened to me once and it’s happens consistently with one of my friends.

It’s not my first choice to carry with me (although that’s because it’s size more than it’s reliability. :stuck_out_tongue: ).

30

True, and I’m an auto fan myself. I was considering the OP’s statement about not being very experienced with guns and I laced my advice with all those ‘ifs’ because YMMV.

31

What the…? When and where did I say I wasn’t very experienced with guns? For crying out loud I’ve been shooting for more than 20 years, go to the range every few weeks, and own about 15 of them, including revolvers and semi-autos, and such items as an AR-15 HBAR. My question was about limp-wristing, something I’ve never experienced - that’s not the same as not having experience with guns.

32

Given your clarified requirements, I’m going to reiterate recommending trying one of Kahr’s smaller guns if you can find one at a gun shop or range.

You might want to consider something like this for when you go for hikes and walks. It can be harder to conceal in clothing during that sort of activity both because you’ll be stretching your body more than normal and because you’ll want to wear lighter clothes.

That’s basically a fanny pack with a false compartment in the back - mine (a different model) is secured by strips of velcro. It feels secure but can be ripped open quickly. It’s very subtle even if you’re looking right at it… I’ve used it to sneak water past security at events before when they examined the contents in the normal pockets. Anyway, if you carry some water, your cell phone, whatever, in it while hiking it wouldn’t seem out of place.

33

I don’t know about you, but whenever I see an overlarge fanny pack (sorry, Brits) without any labels, it immediately screams “Gun!” to me. Of course, if the o.p. is simply interested in making sure the gun doesn’t print rather than giving no indication of carrying a weapon, then it may suit. The better IWB holsters tend to do a good job of smoothing the lines of the gun, but with someone with a small frame that may limit the size of the weapon, and plus they’re not the most comfortable thing to sit on all day.

Stranger

34

Interesting. I hadn’t actually considered a fanny pack holster until I saw them for sale. The one I have isn’t especially big. It fits the USPc 45, but in terms of carrying space that’s about the same size as a larger digital camera.

I doubt more than a very tiny fraction of the population even considers that fanny packs have holsters, but even if they did, it shouldn’t matter. If you’re out for a walk somewhere, and you’re not printing or giving any indication that you’re carrying a gun, even if someone might suspect there’s a gun in there I doubt any problem will come from it.

Like I said - mine was subtle enough that even though security scrutinized it, they didn’t notice the water bottle I was carrying in the secret compartment.

35

I was going through some of my reference books this evening and found an interesting mention of the phenomenon in relation to the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver in my 1973-dated copy of Small Arms Of The World by Joseph E. Smith.

It mentions that "While the [Webley-Fosbery] design is ingenious, it suffers from complication. If the grip is not held quite firmly, the action will not function properly".

The Webley-Fosbery is an unusual piece, and I have heard that they wouldn’t always fire properly in semi-auto mode in incorrectly gripped, but nothing that actually confirms it from a truly reliable source (like a British Armourer’s manual or from a respected researcher).

Wikipedia says that Webley-Fosberys will fire regardless of how they’re gripped, and mechanically this certainly appears to be true, but given that Webley-Fosbery revolvers are rarer than Rocking Horse excrement and worth multi-thousands of dollars, I don’t know anyone who owns one and have no way of verifying if they’re prone to misfires due to insufficient grip strength, limp wristing, or just not holding it properly.

36

FTR, to address the concealed carry weapon I am carrying - I finally settled - the Glock 26.

Advantages: surprisingly low recoil and very little “torquing”, 9mm, 10 shots, very light, and high reliability for feed/resistance to jams.

Disadvantages: No safety, and it’s larger than some concealed carry weapons, but I found a couple of good ways to carry it.

Overall - I genuinely like and am comfortable shooting and handling the weapon.

37

I’m not sure how I missed this thread, but now that it’s too late I’ll chime in. Specifically in reference to the 1911 “limp wristing” is, in my opinion, a way to blame the customer for a mechanical problem. It’s almost never reproducible and most charges of limp-wristing are based purely on a failure. You get one stovepipe and your buddy at the range says you limp-wristed, even tho s/he was looking downrange at the time.
Try holding your 1911 with your thumb on the grip safety and your finger on the trigger (no other contact) and fire a couple off. I suspect it’ll function fine if you have no mechanical or ammo issues. FTE’s are more likely to be solved with a lowered ejection port than a manly grip, for instance.

However, this quote -
“I genuinely like and am comfortable shooting and handling the weapon”
is the most important thing. If you like it and practice with it you’ll learn what ammo it likes best and you’ll handle it better than a handgun you don’t really like.
I don’t like the feel of the Glock grip, I’ve sold off several different molded plastic grip-type handguns and I’m hesitating on the XD until I can borrow one for a while. A 1911 feels right to me, so much so that I once replaced my AR pistol grip with a 1911 style. But that’s me.
ETA - This is discussed elsewhere, as well

38

See also - http://www.custompistols.com/bengtson/articles/smoke.htm

39

Nice. I have the 27- one less round, ammunition is a bit more expensive, recoil is noticeably heavier, but it’s perfect for me.

What’s your carry load going to be? I use 165-grain Federal Hydra-Shoks (.40 S&W). Those are a bit dated, but they’re perfectly adequate. I would also recommend Hornady XTPs, Winchester Ranger SXTs (formerly Black Talons, SXT purportedly stands for “Same eXact Thing”) and Speer Gold Dots.

147-grain is the heavy, slow 9mm round, 115-grains are screamers with low recoil, and 124-grains are a good compromise. I always suggest hollowpoints because they help to prevent overpenetration, which is always a concern in a defensive situation.

I carry mine with one in the pipe, but I use a holster. Depending upon how you’re choosing to carry it, that may not be such a good idea.

Last, if you must have a safety, there are options, from the simple to the complex.

Regardless of what you do, be safe. :slight_smile:

40

BobtheOptimist: The grip feels fine to me, perhaps because I have small hands?

I’m open to suggestions - my CCW instructor recommended hollowpoints, but I’m unsure what’s best. FTR, how does your Glock behave with feeding/reliability?

I carry with no round chambered. It’s what makes me feel comfortable.

Those are really interesting, especially the first one. Thanks!