Evil Captor, a sci-fi movie does not consist solely of the sum of its special effects. Despite what you may believe, not all sci-fi is action/adventure and even if a particular sci-fi flick is act/adv, it’s no excuse for it to lack decent characterization. It’s not simply enough for such a movie to only have one or two characters that are believable or likeable - especially for a movie franchise with such a big history. Granted, we are not going to sit through 5 hours of flashbacks or in-depth character analyses but for the origins of one of the most bad-ass villians in movie history within the last 25 years, you’d think Anakin’s descent into evil would’ve been better fleshed out.
I’m seeing that you place high value on special effects, that a beautiful tapestry of computer-generated backgrounds and landscapes make the movie. However, you fail to consider where Firefly exists: as a television show. TV shows don’t have $100+ million budgets per 44-minute episodes; they have at most 2% of such a budget. They span over 9 months of weekly programming of between 22 to 26 episodes. You have at least 16 hours worth of stories for a given season. Do you realistically believe you can fill that much of it “stunning CG landscapes” or “amazing” special effects without it getting cost-prohibitive or boring? This explanation may seem foreign to you as none of your responses indicate that you grasp what actually goes into a decent film: the friggin characters.
Lucas seems to draw up all of his CGI ideas first and then back into the plot, characters, etc. he can fill them with. Worse, when he does get around to characters, he (over)actively considers marketing, press and the like. (Teddy Bears? Great! 90% don’t like Jar-Jar? Him gone! And how can I squeeze Boba Fett into all of this?) His characters and plotlines have no more depth than telephone surveys, and are less pleasant for the participant besides.
I think I would like Lucas’s CGI a lot more if he were not trying so hard to impress me with it.
" even if it doesn’t contain characterizations as good as pornographic anime, (but really, to be fair, what does?)"
Heh, that’s the line of the day!
Those who are seeking some non-tedious Lem (and he can be tedious when he does his mock-academic thing) should read The Cyberiad or The Star Diaries. They are both charming and funny.
Cite? It’s not like zooms are especially difficult to pull off in CGI, after all. The capability for doing them is pretty much built into the rendering software.
Different people have different expectations from books, or want different kinds of books than are ordinary or typical.
I get the impression that you’d rather watch a flashy movie that’s all bells and whistles instead of a movie with content. Sometimes I just want a flashy movie too, but most often I come away feeling empty, and conceed I wasted a lot of time. You find AotC more enjoyable to watch, while I found it hollow and aimed perfectly at 14-year-old boys. Some people like to watch movies that make them think, while others hate having to think while watching movies. I’ve seen AotC once and my life wasn’t changed by it, and I won’t be affected if I never see it again, and I probably won’t. Tarkovsky’s Solaris I’ve seen numerous times in theatres and on video and DVD, and it continues to amaze me. Soderbergh’s version is forgettable. But just because Solaris isn’t all bells and whistles doesn’t make it less a movie than AotC. Honestly, it doesn’t need flashiness to tell the story, whereas by the time Lucas got to AotC, he’d proven that all he cares about now is making a big show of nothing, while aiming for as much of a fiscal return as possible.
I personally felt the use of CGI in “Firefly” was quite exceptional and beautiful, especially considering the clumsy way Joss Whedon has used it on his other shows.
Some examples that spring to mind:
The floating city above the water in “Trash.”
The neuroimager in “Ariel.”
The arrival of the Alliance air support in “Serenity.”
The aforementioned horizontal tornado of fire in “Out of Gas.”
The electrical net in “Our Mrs. Reynolds.”
The hovertrain in “The Train Job.”
The canyon race in “The Message” and the crazy Ivan in “Serenity.”
The CGI team on “Firefly” managed to create realistic, detailed, and at times breathtaking computer imagery. And, to their further credit, I never once was taken out of the moment by thinking, “Wow, that’s great/crappy effects work.” (Well, okay, once, when the camera came up on the floating islands of Bellerophon, I thought, “Whoa, that’s beautiful… oh, yeah, it’s not real.”)
My point? Did I have one? Oh, yes. This all reminds me of a story Robert Evans (the producer, AKA Kid Notorious) tells about his early days running Paramount. If ever a tie, shirt, or jacket received more than one compliment, he would throw it out. Why? Because the clothing was there to make him look better, not the other way around. If it was attracting attention, it was attracting it away from him. I think CGI in television/film should work the same way. If you notice it as CGI, it’s already too much.
Sorry, I liked the AotC CGI better than Farscape’s, but I agree Farscape did some fantastic stuff with CGI. Farscape had a more interesting universe than Firefly, too. Shame so much of it was about hurting Crichton. (OK, I’m kidding here.)
OK, Blade Runner – perpetual night and rain covers a multitude of sins, eh? Hoth – Yes, a base built out of snow – that HAD to be expensive and difficult. I mean, I used to make those when I was a kid. (Not that much of a criticism – Hote was actually a pretty sharp idea, well realized.) Terminator – all I remember is the robots walking on skulls. Seemed kinda CGI-ish to me. If you’re talking about the scene where the Terminator assaults a human refuge, well, Roger Corman long ago discovered that it’s cheap and easy to portray a future where everyone dresses in rags and everything has been blowed up good. I mean, the thing about Lucas’ Star Wars vision that’s so good is that he’s one of the very few directors to convincingly portray a society more advanced and wealthier than ours without resorting to people dressed in togas running around in malls, and without using a lot of cheap tricks. Aliens – OK, you got me.
Well, things have gotten better since I stopped beating my wife. Personal reminiscence aside, there’s a huge, well-developed literature about women being attracted to Bad Boy types.
Sure, there’s no disputing taste. And I knew going in here that a lot of people liked Firefly from the previous thread. But you learn things when you argue points like this. I missed the eps of Firefly with the floating city and the horizontal flame tornado. I’ll check 'em out if I get the chance. I saw the ep where they robbed the floating train. Ek.
I didn’t much care for Ender’s Game, but Great Sky River – that would be worth seeing, if it were done right.
Oh, you mean the Bizarro World where AotC had millions of happy fans and Solaris pretty much disappeared without leaving a ripple? That’s the one I live on alrighty.
(OK, I’m not going to argue that AotC was good simply because a lot of people liked it – that way lies madness. But if you guys are going to argue that the opinions being bruited hereabout concerning AotC and Solaris are normative for most folks – well, I can’t let that one pass.)
That opening scene of the hovercar flying over the cityscape blows anything in the last two SW movies completely off of the screen.
That’s the point, though. Building a set for Hoth was cheap, easy, and looked great. If Lucas were making it today, he’d have done it with CGI, greenscreened in all the actors, and it would have shown.
Terminator came out in 1984. At that time, the pinnacle of computer effects was still 1982’s Tron.
I agree completely, except for the part about it being convincing, or not involving cheap tricks.
You know, I just got the DVD of Babylon 5, season three. And the CGI in that is better than anything in AotC. Not on a technical level, certainly, but in terms of creativity, artistic design, emotional impact, and relevance to story, it makes Lucas look like the absolute piker he really is. I mean, sure, B5 could never have made anything that looks like that chrome covered spaceship that Amidala had in PM, but more importantly, the designers behind that show had the sense to not want to make anything that looked as dumb as that interstellar hood ornament.
“Demon With A Glass Hand” from the Outer Limits TV series is one of my absolute favorite SF ANYTHING. So I’m not just about the special effects. And I liked Blade Runner, but not because of the look, because of the way its theme worked out. That speech at the end from the dying android was great: “I have seen fireships burning in the skies above Orion.” Great stuff. Writing trumps all, when it’s that good. But writing that good is rare, very, very rare. And writing isn’t the only thing. Nekkid women and dinosaurs are good, too.
[quote=Evil Captor]
Not really. To spell it out, Pink had just had her clothes stripped off and was being tied up, and was undoubtedly anticipating that Santa was going to fuck her in that state, probably right there, in front of their travelling companions. And she wasn’t protesting ANY of that, really just that it was too early in the day for such shenanigans.
What kind of TV shows have YOU been watching? Have I been missing out here?
[quote]
You’re missing my point (I guess you’re distracted by the graphic nature of that show) Sarcastic quips are EVERYWHERE and not necessarily characterization.
You can see those types of jokes on Friends, before that Sienfield, before that Mad About You. Heck if I remembered Three’s Company better it might have been on that show.
Speaking of Mad About You there’s a scene where the dog is on the bed and begins to lick Helen Hunt she says “honey I’m not in the mood” by your criteria this would say a lot about their marriage and his skills at initiating romance.
Doing/saying the unexpected is the very heart of comedy. It does not establish character. Establishing character is when they come to life as living breathing complex organisms. I’ve yet to see a Hentai that even comes close (though some Anime does a great job but those are by far the exception to the rule)
It’s an odd thing…I liked PM and AotC quite a bit, but only because of what Ostrander’s writing did for the SW universe in the Dark Horse comics that came after both (and because Ewan McGregor in restraints makes me all gooey). I enjoy the Star Wars Republic-era universe, but the actual movies seem a bit like over-reaching fan-fiction set in said universe.
Miller pretty much said most of what I wanted to in my response to you, but I’ll still share, just to drive the points home.
Again, the opening scene with the flying cars had a great shot of the city, all neon and flashy, floating cars, and was much more impressive than the Corosant, or whatever the hell world it was in AotC. If you need another, more blatant example, The Fifth Element had another scene with bright shinny flying cars in a world full of neon that makes AotC’s city nothing impressive. Hell, Back to the Future 2 had the same shit, and that was mainly miniatures!
[BQUOTE]Hoth – Yes, a base built out of snow – that HAD to be expensive and difficult. I mean, I used to make those when I was a kid. (Not that much of a criticism – Hote was actually a pretty sharp idea, well realized.) Terminator – all I remember is the robots walking on skulls. Seemed kinda CGI-ish to me. If you’re talking about the scene where the Terminator assaults a human refuge, well, Roger Corman long ago discovered that it’s cheap and easy to portray a future where everyone dresses in rags and everything has been blowed up good.
[/quote]
THe scenes from Terminator and T2 that I were refering to were the scenes with the robots walking on the skulls. Funny how you found that “kinda CGI-ish” seeing as how they were all puppets and marianettes and miniatures. No CGI except for the lasers, and maybe the flying HKs in **T2[/]. Interesting that something that’s real looks like bad CGI to you, yet something that looks like bad CGI to everyone else is flawless in your eyes.
And you can’t compare Roger Corman to George Lucas when it comes to special effects. That’s like comparing Rembrant to my two year old cousin in terms of drawing ability. Corman was known for his piss poor visual effects, and he knew it…that was his thing. He went around totting that he could make a really quick, simple movie with piss poor special effect, terrible acting, and a horrible plot, yet still make movies that were original and fun to watch. Lucas, on the other hand, is trying to make huge, epic and powerful movies that are now relyant on the visual effects. The big difference is that Corman succeeded and Lucas is failing, big time.
Still, people are watching his movies, and even though the vast majority of them hate them, they still go back. But you know what they say, there’s no such thing as bad press. I’m pretty sure I’ll see Episode 3, but I’m also pretty sure it’s going to be a festering ball of crap.
Again, I don’t recall many togas in Farscape, or Blade Runner, or The Fifth Element, and even Star Trek:TNG and beyond had lots of societies that had pretty impressive looking costumes that weren’t just togas. Lucas has done nothing impressive here. And even then, what you’re talking about is costume design, which is far detatched from grand images of fancy, fake looking scenery.
I know.
That’s just my point. Anakin wasn’t the “Bad Boy” type, he was the whinny, pathetic, loser type, which does NOT attract women (unless they’ve got some sort of a complex). Women like bad boys because they don’t care what others think, they do their own thing, and are tough. Bad boys do not bitch and moan and whine about how unfair everything is, and that it’s so uncool that Master Obi-Wan doesn’t let me go out and play when I want, and girls don’t like me, and whah whah what…Anakin should be a good guy, and a bad-ass…not this little shit.
I watched about five minutes of it two days ago. It was still bad.
Several people have notiiced the Hentai reference, but how about this statment:
Evil Captor I salute you! It takes stones to admit that you like John Norman, here in public, where everyone can see. This would also explain how the whole romance between Amadala and Little Wooden Boy didn’t turn you off.
LWB:
" I just went nuts and wiped out an entire village"
Amadala:
“That’s so cool, do me”
But honestly, if there was any hint of good plot or characterization, we would have been made to CARE about Anakin at SOME stage. As it was we got an anoying brat, who grew up to be a whiny teenager. There is not tragedy in his downfall to the dark side, if anything becoming a sith lord is going to do this twerp some good.
As for Amadala, we see no reason why somene who was supposed to have strength of character and compassion would fall for this guy. Sorry, maybe on Gor self respect is just a show that a woman puts up to hide the fact that she, like all woman, secretly wants to be tied up and dominated, but most of the woman I know and respect would disagree.
Wait, the woman on Firefly were self confident, and by no means dishrags, perhaps that's why you don't like it.
Still, John Norman, Hentai, I respect your right to enjoy whatever floats it. You must admit however, not exactly what I would call the best examples of the genre.
