Flaws in near-perfection: LOTR Movies

Cafe Society
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I’m an enormous fan of the LOTR movies. I’ve seen them zillions of times, been pissed off when they didn’t win every oscar ever, etc.

However, there are a few parts (I will restrict my comments to FOTR, which I’ve seen far more times, given that it’s out on DVD) which I think are definitely flaws. To wit:

(1) My biggest gripe is probably the scene after the cave troll fight when the fellowship is fleeing through the big empty hall, and a truly ludicrous quantity of goblins suddenly show up. For one thing, this is one of the few spots where the CGI really looks poor. But more importantly, how on earth can there be that many goblins there? Why is there a goblin army that large hanging around in Moria? Who are they there to fight? How do they eat? Why didn’t they all show up 5 minutes earlier and bury the fellowship under their combined weight? Why do they pause dramatically, despite outnumbering our heroes 10,000 to 9, just long enough to be scared off by the Balrog? And why are they so scared that they don’t bother taking the 2 seconds that it would take them to all fire arrows and puncture our heroes like pincushions? Oh, and since when can they climb like spiders?

(2) Speaking of that big empty hall, what’s the point of it? Why would the dwarves build a huge useless area like that? If that’s the realm of the dwarves, shouldn’t there be houses, temples, buildings, corpses, something?

(3) When Aragorn and Frodo are caught on the broken staircase, they just stand there dumbly, and somehow, miraculously, in violation of all laws of physics, it topples over in exactly the right direction. That whole part has never looked right to me. Would it have been a terrible violation of Tolkein Canon to have Gandalf do something subtle but magical that ensured that the toppling would happen correctly? Or could our heroes have come up with some clever plan involving rope or jumping up and down or something? Heroes as steadfast as The Fellowship shouldn’t have to depend on sheer dumb luck like that.

(4) How does Gollum manage to follow them through the mines of Moria? How does he get through the door in the first place, given that it was buried shut? Where is he when the goblins are filling the hall? How does he get across the bridge? For that matter, how does he follow them through Lothlorien without the elves knowing?

(5) The Nazgul, while scary looking, seem totally harmless. First, many of them on horseback have 4 hobbits on foot completely surrounded, and yet the hobbits randomly get away. Then, many of them with swords have 4 hobbits on foot with daggers (who don’t know how to use the daggers) completely surrounded, and barely manage to stab one of them, before being completely routed by a single guy with a sword and a torch.
Anyone else?

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  1. It’s a movie.
  2. It’s a movie.
  3. It’s a movie.
  4. It’s a movie.
  5. It’s a movie.
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RTFB

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I’m guessing you haven’t read the novel (partly because of the misspelling of Tolkien’s name). All your objections are valid, and mostly happen because of movie conventions. The scene on Weathertop, in particular (referenced in (5) above), made more sense in the novel.

I seem to recall that mostly Moria isn’t described, except for being really dark. That doesn’t translate into great cinema, so you can really see a lot more than would be reasonably possible. Don’t know why they showed the Orcs crawling up and down the pillars like spiders. I understand compressing a lengthy and rambling story, but sometimes Peter Jackson made changes for no apparent reason. Still a great movie, though.

I was more annoyed by the unnecessary use of special effects when Galadriel is explaining what would happen if she accepted the Ring.

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  1. The spider-goblins annoyed me, too, but beyond that, I didn’t have a problem with the scene in general. They probably didn’t rush the Fellowship in the beginning because they were gathering. The fight in the tomb was just the “scouting party”, so to speak.

  2. Same reason humans build huge palaces with hundreds of rooms. Opulence is its own reward.

  3. Aragorn did tell Frodo to “lean forward” when the isolated section started wobbling. It wasn’t entirely dumb luck, though I doubt the two of them together weighed enough to appreciably alter the center of mass of the column. Just pretend a wizard did it.

  4. There was at least one other entrance (remember how the Fellowship got out?), and likely more than that. It is a large mountain range, after all, and there were probably goblin tunnels running through much of it. No biggie.

  5. Frodo would probably disagree with the “harmless” characterization…

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I’ll take a crack at answering some of these issues.

As for 1) you’re assuming that this is a goblin (or, if you prefer, orc) army. Tolkien makes it pretty clear that goblins/orcs as part of their nature inhabit underground places. In other words, Moria at this point has become a goblin city. As for why there are so many of them, I guess they breed like bugs. Why are there so many people living in Mexico City? I will give you that the spidery, climbing-the-walls thing was fairly uncanonical, though fairly visually arresting.

Point 2): before it was abandoned by the dwarves and occupied by the goblins (not counting Balin’s slaughtered crew), Moria was the capital of Dwarfdom in Middle-earth; why all the fancy, oversized buildings in Washington, D.C.? Think about it.

Point 3): I don’t have anything to say about this. It was just a movie thing; i.e., it looked good.

Point 4): Gollum, having lived underground for several hundred years, has a pretty good idea about moving around in the dark. And he didn’t need to get in through the (eventually ruined) western door; he was already in there, having taken refuge in the mines after escaping Mordor. Tolkien made that point pretty clear. He picked up the Fellowship’s path mid-way through Moria.

Point 5): The effectualness of the Nazgûl is debatable. In the specific instance of Weathertop, Tolkien made it clear that they withdrew in order to allow the poisoned dagger chunk in Frodo’s shoulder to do its work and turn him into a wraith–thus making him easier to catch/control in the long run. Better to have him become a subordinate wraith bent to their will than to keep chasing him around the wilderness for who knows how long. And as they are presented in the novel, the Ringwraiths seem to be relatively weak in terms of actual physical power; they do their business through intimidation and terror. In the person of Aragorn (and to a lesser extent, the hobbits) they were confronted by someone who wasn’t puttin’ up with their shit, if you know what I mean…

It has taken me so long to compose this that several other posts have probably already addressed these issues, but maybe I’ve filled in a blank or two.

Of course, it’s entirely possible I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about. You will be the judge.

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  1. The goblins were there to fight all the dwarves who had been living there previously. I don’t know what they eat. What did the dwarves who built the city eat? I’m guessing a lot of mushrooms. They didn’t show up earlier because it took them a while to gather their forces, and they probably assumed that the first band of goblins with the cave troll would be enough to take them out. After that mob got decimated without doing any more damage than bruising a hobbit, they pulled out all the stops. They paused before attacking because goblins are inherently cowardly, and the Fellowship is made up of five of the biggest bad-asses in Middle Earth (plus four hobbits). Even though they would’ve overwhelmed them, the front ranks would doubtlessly have taken serious casualties. As for the bows and the spider-like climbing, call it artistic liscence.

  2. Maybe it was a ballroom. Or the Dwarf equivalent of a city park. Dwarves seem the type to be more impressed by a bunch of pillars than a bunch of trees. Or maybe it was structural: the cave was natural, but the ceiling was unstable. Or maybe they just built it for the hell of it.

  3. I’ve got to agree with you on this one. Could have been handled better, or even cut entirely. Why keep that scene, which was a kind of pointless action scene in the middle of a whole bunch of other action scenes, and then cut the gift giving scene in Lothlorien which is vital to many events in the second (and probably third) movie?

  4. There are doubtlessly other ways into Moria, that gate was simply the most convenient that Gandalf knew about. Remember, Gollum spend centuries living under the Misty Mountain, and as such probably knows as much about mountaineering and spelunking as any dwarf. This answer works for the next two questions: he found another way around. As for Lothlorien, perhaps he just went around. Gollum might have just hung around the outskirts of Lothlorien, then picked up the trail after the Fellowship had left.

  5. It’s not just four hobbits, it’s four hobbits and arguably the single most powerful magical artifact in the history of Middle Earth. The Nazgul aren’t harmless, they’re justifiably cautious. And they don’t get defeated by one guy with a torch, they get defeated by Aragorn, last heir to Gondor, desendent of Numenor, and all-around unstoppable killing machine. Remember, the Fellowship isn’t just a bunch of schmoes with swords, it’s like having Alexander the Great, Sun Tzu, Achilles, and Gilgamesh all on the same team. These are the greatest warriors of the age: it takes an army just to bring down any one of these guys.

Mercutio: thank you for adding absolutely nothing to the thread. Here’s a thread about William Shakespeare. Be sure to stop by and let everyone know “it’s just a play.”

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Ok its been answered loads, but heres mine…

  1. There Orcs, not goblins, Orcs… why are there so many? because ORcs are tortured elves etc… its in the books, and they were all around back in the original war, they hardly just disapeered after the war, and considering its mentioned loads about how Orcs like the dark dreary paces of the world, they live in Moria as its not basically just a tomb. Why the dramatic pause? Because Pete Jackson decided to keep it like the book, the way Tolkien wrote it, and you can be certain that if there was no balrog then the Fellowship would be toast… And why didnt they all go fight with the cave troll in the tomb area… Like we said Moria is massive, may take a few to get there…

  2. The Dwarves liked things big, Gimli more or less says it when describing Moria to the other memebers of the fellowship. And Dwarves by trade are miners, whats a better way to show how good you are then to make somethign that impressive?

  3. They stood there dumbly… well what would YOU do??? not much you can do really when the thing your standing on is disintingrating beloow your feet… As for your rope theory, as you may remember, they didnt have any rope, hence the reason Galadriel gave Sam some rope when they left lothlorien, its only in the extended version of FOTR and in the Book. And maybe they left the use of Gandalfs magic out of it in a way of showing us that the Fellowship can actually survive without Gandalf… a sign of things to come?

  4. Gollum is over 3000 years old, he spent the best part of those years living in the mountains, deep in them… dont remember which one sorry… after spending that long in a place Id imagine you get fairly nifty at managing dark tunnels etc etc… how did he get in? Like … said I assume there was more then one door, there had to be, how else would the orcs have gotten in? And about Lothlorien, its left out of the film, but in the books Haldir(I think thats his name) does say that they have seen someone on there borders, and they went out to check who it was but found no one, and although I may very well have imagined this, there was a part when they had to get up into the trees because of an intruder… again I could have made that up.

  5. The Nazgul, again are over 3000 years old, they were once men who have been turned into wraiths… that alone in itself is scary, how did the Hobbits get past? well it was never like there were 9 nazgul against the 4 hobbits, it was always one on four, except getting to Buckleberry ferry, and in that case the only reason the Hobbits won out was because they knew the area. The Nazgul did not… and exactly what Miller said about Aragorn for your last point…

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  1. I think I read in “Unfinished Tales” that the Nazgul were less powerful during Fellowship of the Ring on purpose. Sauron sent them out in secret to get to the Shire and it wouldn’t look good if everyone within a mile radius was suddenly afraid. So Sauron “weakened” them for their task.

During the siege of Gondor, the Nazgul were “restored”.

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Say what? I thought he was more like 600, having spent 500 years in his cave. Did I just misremember?

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When Gandalf and Bilbo part at the beginning of FotR, the front door of Bag End is open (it’s in plain sight behind Bilbo). Next scene: the door swings open to reveal the Ring lying on the floor.

Nice dramatic touch, but . . .

“Continuity? We don’ need your stinkin’ continuity!”

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Re: Gollum & Moria

From Appendix B to Lord of the Rings (the timeline)–
2463 … Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol.
2470 About this time Smeagol-Gollum hides in the Misty Mountains.
…
2941 …Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum and finds the Ring.

So Gollum was in the caves just less than 500 years. It is not said anywhere that “the goblin caves under the Misty Mountains” are actually Moria, but that’s my belief.

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You don’t think Gandalf might have closed the door before he lit his pipe to wait for Frodo?

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Guess I should have described it better. This was immediately after Bilbo’s departure.

Bilbo leaves, door opens (revealing the Ring), Gandalf bends down to touch it, Eye of Sauron flashes, Gandalf withdraws his hand.

Cut to Gandalf before the fire w/pipe, Frodo (outside) calling Bilbo’s name.

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Um, what you’ve missed here is that the cut is a cut to later. Maybe no more than 5 minutes, but there is a time shift there.

Unless you actually think that Jackson would have Gandalf light his pipe, close the door and transport himself across the the room and begin brooding in a matter of milliseconds and expect us to not notice?

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There was only one flaw in FOTR that caught my eye the first time I saw it in the theatre. That was during the big touching scene at the end as Boromir’s dying and telling Aragorn what a stud he is. The camera angle repeatedly shifts from one perspective, looking over Aragorn’s shoulder into Boromir’s face, to another, with the camera near the ground, next to Boromir, looking into Aragorn’s face. The problem is that in the first angle, Boromir has his hand on Aragorn’s shoulder, but in the second angle, he doesn’t. And as it switches back and forth several times, it’s quite noticeable.

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It’s the same mountain range, but the goblin caves were a good 300 miles to the North of Moria, at least according to The Atlas of Middle Earth.

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OK, in the spirit of nitpicking a great film:

  1. “I’m old, Gandalf. I know I don’t look it…”
    Yes, Bilbo, you do. By book logic, Bilbo would have looked not that much older than Frodo and this line would have been appropriate. In the movie, spoken by an older actor, it sounds silly and vain. I know it makes sense to make the age difference visibly apparent in the movie and I love Ian Holm’s performance, but they could have altered the line to fit. Something like, “I’m old, Gandalf, older than I look.”

  2. Gandalf: Electic Boogaloo
    This was the first wizard battle I’ve seen that looked and sounded like a fight, as opposed to phony lightning bolts shooting out of someone’s finger tips, but then Gandalf started spinning on his head.

  3. Strider who?
    The book makes it quite clear that Gandalf and Strider are comrades and the Hobbits need to be convinced of this fact. In the film it seems like he happens to be lounging around the inn and the Hobbits take to him rather too quickly.

  4. “You cannot wield it! No one can! It’s power squeak squeak!”
    What the hell happened to Viggo’s voice here? OK, sometimes when we get excited our voices rise in pitch, but he sounds like he’s been sucking on helium, here. Was this really the best take? I can’t understand why Peter Jackson wouldn’t have him redub it, at least.

  5. “You shall be called THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING!”
    Pssst, Elrond… never shout the title of the movie, unless it happens to be “Spartacus!” It’s kinda cheesy.

  6. Gimli the Thick
    OK, I’ll except that Gimli has no clue about the fate of Moria, but shouldn’t he have caught on a little sooner? The dwarven skeletons were sort of a giveaway.

  7. “No one tosses a dwarf.”
    In case that didn’t break the dramatic tension let’s follow it up with 6.1, “Not the beard.”

  8. Nuclear Galadriel
    I don’t mind the concept of her getting all scary, but I didn’t think it was very well done.

  9. CGI Warrior Elf
    There are various moments where the special effects aren’t quite convincing, but I could overlook those for the most part. The scene where Legolas jumps onto the trolls back and seems to turn from a live actor into a video game character bothers me.

  10. The missing nitpick.
    I wish I could come up with an even 10.

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<< 7. “No one tosses a dwarf.”
In case that didn’t break the dramatic tension let’s follow it up with 6.1, “Not the beard.” >>
Should have been 7.1. I’m firing my continuity supervisor.

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Re: Gollum, haha 3000 years old, omg thats a typo and a half, I meant over 300 hundred years old! Still out tho considering it was 500 but still better be out by 2 years then 2500 :rolleyes:

  1. I didnt pay much attention to it, look at Bilbos face compared to that of the older neighbours, aside from the grey hair, he looks far better then them.

  2. I agree with you there, its not something that bothers me really, creating the atmosphere, right?

  3. They threaten him in the Inn, they mistrust him as they set out, and ‘what are you doing those wraiths are still out there’. I think they got the mistrust in there fairly well, Its not like they could develop it like in the books. Time constraints and all that.

  4. Grief can do amazing things…

  5. That scene looked really bad…