Sorry, damned double posting.
So, you are going to reject the whole thing, just because you managed to find a few inaccuracies? :rolleyes: What would happen if someone tried to do that with the Bible? Hmmm…
I agree.
Why the rolleyes? It’s obvious the author of the Beastwatch Web site doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I mean, don’t ANY fundies read anything besides the Bible these days?
The Revelation of St. John was a coded diatribe against the persecution of Christians by Nero. It has zip to do with events today. There is no God, there is no Devil, there will be no Antichrist and no Rapture. It’s fiction.
Wildest Bill;
Yikes! I admittedly could not stand to read all the pages of the “Beastwatch”, so perhaps I missed something. I’m sure you’ll let me know. However, here are my thoughts:
First, though this is a bit of a nit pick, in the very first paragraph the author lists 17 nations and claims that one nation will emerge from ten of those listed and “absorb” three others. Or something like that. Anyway, listed among the 17 are the United Arab Emerites and Abu Dhabi. Since Abu Dhabi is one ofthe United Arab Emerites, this immediately brought the author’s credibility into question.
Then it went on with things like this:
From this, they conclude the the country of the Beast will be:
Uh, yah. Maybe it’s crystal clear to this guy, but I sure don’t see where it says anything of the kind.
In all honesty, Bill, I don’t see how you can presume to understand any prophesies layed out in Revelation, if there are any. I mean, could it be any more convoluted? It’s reads like the author was on crack.
Then, the author of Beastwatch says this:
(emphasis mine)
Well, aparently, according to the articles you linked to previously, Saudia Arabia condones beheading as a form of punishment.
The author also claims this:
I tried to find independant confirmation of this and could not. While I did find many sites dealing with the problem of slavery in the Sudan, they all seems to think the problem was the people of Arab decent enslaving the blacks. I could not find any reference to Christians being forced into slavery (though no doubt some of the blacks who are being forced into slavery are Christian) If you can find anything to back up this claim, Wild Bill, I’ll read it.
And that’s about as much as I could take of the Beastwatch site. What have you got for me next, Bill? I’m still game.
goboy
The rolleyes were not directed to you, but to my phrase “a few inaccuracies”. I agree with you!
I didn’t say this guy was perfect but he did have some facts on beheadings. But as someone said beheadings were things of the past but today they are considered as taboo. But for some reason these radical Muslims called the Shariah are making it one of their main execution techniques which seem a little odd in this day and age does it not?
Another reference is a book by Tim Lahay called “Are We Living in the End Times.”(see goboy I did read a book) I don’t know if naming a book is copout(because it is hard to reference easily due to getting the book and reading it and all)but this guy I really do respect as knowledgable source and having a passion for prophesy stuff. He is highly educated with doctorates and all which I think would hold weight around here.
I have a question for all y’all though. When do these threads end? Does one of us gotta say “uncle” or something. I was just wondering because I don’t want y’all to label me as one those drive by jeezers(I think that’s what that guy called Christians)posters that say something and split. I have tried to defend my position as well as I could. In reality my first post was really just a simple question about if you would take the mark or beast or not. Kinda of a last ditch effort to help your soul according to my beliefs in my God if in fact they turn out to be factual which I believe they are.(I hope I phrased that sentence right not to insult anyone). Just wondering.
[quote]
I didn’t say this guy was perfect but he did have some facts on beheadings. But as someone said beheadings were things of the past but today they are considered as taboo.
[quote]
Only in the West.Beheading has always been an accpeted form of capital punishment in the Middle East. Besides, as Lucky and I pointed out, your guy has no facts. Much of what he says is either wrong or grossly exaggerated.
Muslims are not called shariah. Sharia is the name for the body of law derived from the Koran. You might as well call people who live in America Constitutions. “Ahmed, we must kill some of those Constitutions.”
That’s up to you. You have a lot of defenders here, and I’m sure you’d have fun if you stayed and hung out on a regular basis. You don’t always have to debate religion, you know.
For the record, no, I would not take the mark of the beast if I knew that’s what it was.
*Originally posted by goboy *
[/quote]
Muslims are not called shariah. Sharia is the name for the body of law derived from the Koran. You might as well call people who live in America Constitutions. “Ahmed, we must kill some of those Constitutions.”
[/quote]
Oh. I stand corrected.
What are “defenders”?
I think you misunderstood me. I am do enjoy being here. There are some really smart and nice people here. I am just talking about this particular thread. How long does a thread go on here? What is the rule or the custom for it? Now you see what I saying?
Thankyou. That’s all I wanted to know. And if you don’t die before that part of the tribulation I’ll see you in Heaven goboy. 
To be honest, what he has are some unsupported assertions. His “facts” on beheadings could be based soundly in actual reality, or in personal opinion, or in what other people have told him, or even made up out of whole cloth.
As goboy pointed out, beheading is only odd to us. In fact, there is a strong sentiment that it’s a more “humane” way of killing someone than electrocution or firing squad. M’sieur Guillotine might have been on to something after all.
Honestly, not really. Apart from the fact that I don’t find college degrees to be at all indicative of intelligence or critical thinking skills, neither Western Theological Seminary nor Liberty College are paragons of independent thought.
Just because I hold degrees from Baby Doc Medical School and Miskatonic University doesn’t make me a doctor or an expert in medieval metaphysics.
Tim LaHaye is indeed an expert in his particular field, which is literalist, milleniarist, evangelical Reform Christianity. He certainly does have a passion for prophesy, and in quite knowledgeable of matters relating to his speciality. That his views are not shared by the majority of Christians in the world undoubtedly does not hold weight with you.
It’s mostly a matter of fading interest. Eventually, it’ll fade off the map. David and Gaudere usually don’t close ongoing discussions here, the nature of debating being what it is.
Unless you’re sick of us, I have another question for you regarding the OP. There are those who believe that the mark of yon beastie has already come. And that I, goboy, Dr. Lao, and yes, even you, have already accepted it. Who’s to say that andros_sd@hotmail.com is not the mark? Or joe.blow@aol.com?
What if you’ve already accepted it without knowing?
Hijack, but I think I deserve it…
[Wildest] Billy [the Witness] said:
I have not lived in vain.
To address your original question: Would I take the mark of the Beast? I don’t know. I haven’t really thought about it. I can’t see getting a tattoo on myself. ::shrug:: I also have not thought about what I would do if Odin tapped me on the shoulder and asked whether I stand with him or the Frost Giants. I expect neither to happen. (Have you thought about what you are going to say to Odin?)
As goboy said earlier, John was writing about contemporary things, not things two thousand years in his future. People are always reading the Revelation and deciding that the time is now. It doesn’t seem to bother anyone when the end does not arrive; “Well, obviously they were wrong! They just misinterpreted the signs. But, look at what’s happening today!” When I was younger, Russia was said to be the evil-one-world government…
And your links! The first site had lots of information, but was not relevant to the end-time. The second talked about nothing but the end-time, but had no information.
I’m just not convinced.
I’ve got a question. Does the Anti-Christ know what he is? Shouldn’t he know he must lose the final battle? Is he just stupid or something?
Originally posted by andros
The Bible says you will knowingly take the mark and have to worship this antichrist dude.
Knowingly accept the mark? Or accept the mark knowing it’s serving the antichrist?
If the first, I knowingly accepeted my email address, so did you.
If the second, how could you possibly ask the question in the first place? “If the antichrist came up and said ‘Hi, I’m the antichrist,’ would you serve him?” I mean, even for those of us who don’t accept your interpretation of Revelation, that’s kinda silly, isn’t it?
Can you point me to the verses dealing with knowing acceptance of the mark? Thanks.
*Originally posted by andros *
I knew you were going to ask that. So already had the Bible open.
Rev 13:15-17 “He(false prophet)was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to woship the image to be killed, 16 He also forced everyone , small, great, rich and poor, free a dn slave, to recieve a mark on his right hand or his forhead, so that no one could by or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.”
You see it couldn’t be an email because when I go to store they don’t ask to see your email andros. Also the false prophet wants you to worship the beast and I haven’t been forced to worship nobody as of yet.
Sidenote on the end times board at the left behind board somebody brought up something really weird on a thread about the mark and it even kinda tripped me out. Do you realize that you use your right hand on the mouse and the reflection of the computer screen is on your forhead. Dododododo(suppose to be twilight theme)
Billy, one thing that has always gotten to me about the Antichrist passages is the line about “if it were possible, he would deceive even the very elect.” To me (and to Adam, another Christian poster who uses the screen name Zion and has been scarce around here of late), that implies a successful evangelist who is not preaching the Gospel but a message of hate disguised in “Christian-speak.” And I’d ask, does that sound like anybody you’ve heard of?
Originally posted by Polycarp *
How does that verse imply that to you? I am confused.
Man it is late in the day and I would hate to guess that and be wrong. But I’ll try, Gore?
Also, what did you mean about the last post you had? About the not living in vain? I am tired but very curious?
OK, I’m not sure how much sense this will make to you all, sorry, y’all, but here goes.
I was brought up in a christian family. I know this invalidates anything I say in the eyes of a number of people, but I can’t help that. I learn’t to read when I was 2 or thereabouts. As a result, by the time I was 14 I had read a fair bit of the Bible (between reading Heinlein, Clarke, W.E.Johns, and C.S.Lewis), especially Revelations, because it was full of wars, disasters and such. However, when I was about 14 I went to a school holiday camp, which I had done a number of times previously. On this occasion, I was sat down to watch a movie called “A Theif In The Night”, or something like that. I was completely baffled by it. My reading left me with a picture of lots of wars and disasters at various times, and all those chosen by Christ being called to Him at some time, but I still cannot find any reason to beleive that I’m going to be taken into a full relationship with God before anything nasty happens to me. That strikes me as a very selective reading of Scripture.
There’s not much in the way of methodical theological training for those under the age of 14, so I was stuck with what I could pick up from the Bible myself.
It might interest some cynics to know that, from that background, the Creationist veiwpoint struck me as unbelievably naive when it was presented to my at the private Christian school I went to for a few years. I then went to a catholic school for a while, where my history teacher seemed convinced that Queen Elizabeth 1 was actually a prostitute and a witch, who had danced naked on the beach drinking the blood of virgins when the poor, helpless Spanish Amarda was sunk in 1588. I got the idea then, that the only way I would ever learn anything was by doing my own reading, reasoning things out for myself, and engaging in debate. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians seem to regard this veiwpoint as heretical, so I have found it difficult to find people to debate things with. I love this message board. Even with the trolls.
Hi again, Wildest Bill,
Just a couple of points. When you wrote about the Shariah, I got the impression that you thought it was a new thing. For the record, it dates from the 8th Century. I realize that takes a bit away from the “Look, Look! The apocalypse is comming” standpoint, but thems the facts.
Also, it was me who made the comment about beheading being old fashoined. I was really just making a joke, having a very comical picture in my head of rampant beheading in 21st Century America. Sorry if I mislead you. But, as goboy pointed out, beheading is only uncommon in the West. It is certainly not a new phenomenon in the East.
I asked a question in my last post that you didn’t answer, but I really wish you would. Specifically, I’d like to know how you make any sence out of Revelation and how you come to interpret it the way you do. I’m not trying to back you into a corner here, but to me Revelation is on par with Nostradomus in incomprehesibility. I’ll repeat the quote from my last post for an example of what I mean.
I honestly cannot see anything in Rev. 17:16-18 that would lead me to interpret it in the way BeastWatch does. What is it that you’re seeing that I’m not?
And as long as I’m into quoting Revelation, why is this verse you cited in your last post in the past tense?
Maybe this is a stupid question, but shouldn’t prophesy be in the future tense?
And lastly, a couple of funnies. You said:
I don’t know what’s going on in your house, cowboy, but my forhead isn’t the least bit reflective.
And this one was so funny I spit pop on my keyboard:
Anyway, I hope you do stick around and debate. I love to discuss my thoughts, especially with people who disagree with me. If I have to defend my thinking, it makes me examine it more critically and that, I think, is a very good thing.
Yea I’ll stick around and I will answer your questions as best as I can Revelations is a tough one there is alot smarter people than me that can answer your questions(if you haven’t figured that out already )after the weekend. I gotta go check on a constrution project now.
Oh one more thing unless you have long banes(sp)you know long hair hanging down over your forehead like we wore in the 70’s the reflection will be on you forehead. I’ll tell you how to check this. Turn off the lights in your computer room and have someone look at you from the back of the monitor. They will see the light of the screen reflecting off your forhead. Seriously. Bye for now.
Billy, in answer to your questions:
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The Antichrist has to be, from what that verse says, somebody who is smooth enough to “talk the talk” well enough to (almost) fool the true Christians. “If it were possible, to deceive the very elect.” Right? So I figure that it has to be a publc figure who professes to be a Christian, uses all the right language, but does not preach the gospel of God’s love but one of hate. And there are a couple of good candidates running around right now for that job description, IMHO. (Of course, that’s probably true of almost any point in history as well…) Gore: naah. As I remarked in the Newsstand thread we’re both following, both Bush and Gore have moderately solid moral standards that are, unfortunately, flexible enough to allow a lot of political chicanery within them. Don’t confuse somebody trying to live up to his own moral standards with somebody violating the ones you espouse – that gets pretty intense.
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For reasons that would take too long to post, I’ve always been quite concerned for the sort of abuse that gay people have gotten at the hands of self-proclaimed Christians, and the anti-Christian attitudes of the majority of gays in consequence. So to hear you say what you did to goboy made me feel like I haven’t been totally beating my head against a brick wall in trying to get each side to see the other’s problems and point of view.