For the moron with the too-loud car stereo, next to me at the stoplight

GaWsh:

Still wasting air, eh? Well, kicking you around the block was fun and you did deserve all of it. As expected it was also unproductive. I read with interest your comments about ‘get over it’ and ‘live with it’. I gotta hand it to you, you got balls to admit to such antisocial behavior. But as I mentioned you seem reasonable on other issues, so there might be hope for you yet.

So, all fun and kidding aside, now it’s time to get really dirty and dredge up some facts. Please keep in mind that these are not opinions, these are the results from field tests and clinical trials. Details are at the bottom of the post, but the short version is:

  • Noise is a physiological stressor and produces aggrevation, increased hostility and aggressiveness, reduced tendency to help a person in need, reduced cooperation, and is a major factor in the dehumanization of urban environments.
  • Prolonged exposure to noisy environments can lead to both temporary and apparently permanent health effects including adverse effects on cardiovascular disease and fetal health.
  • Noise adversely affects performance of complex or cognitive tasks such as reading or learning.
  • Noise increases the use of drugs and mental illness on average in the affected population.
  • Noise interrupts sleep which is needed for physical and mental health. After effects last well into the next day.
  • Noise (particularly in the mid frequency ranges) interferes with speech and particularly victimzes the hard of hearing.
  • Noise affects children, the ill, the elderly, and disabled people the most.
    After the ass reaming I gave you, I’m not expecting a response above the ‘get jacked’ level. However, these are the facts. What you are doing is no different than if you were driving around a 1963 shitmobile puking out clouds of blue smoke and telling everyone to ‘breathe some other air, not my problem’.

[http://www.who.int/peh/noise/ComnoiseExec.htm]

-Speech intelligibility in everyday living conditions is influenced by speech level; speech pronunciation; talker-to-listener distance; sound level and other characteristics of the interfering noise; hearing acuity…For full sentence intelligibility in listeners with normal hearing, the signal-to-noise ratio … should be at least 15 dB(A). Since the sound pressure level of normal speech is about 50 dB(A), noise with sound levels of 35 dB(A) or more interferes with the intelligibility of speech in smaller rooms. For vulnerable groups even lower background levels are needed, and a reverberation time below 0.6 s is desirable for adequate speech intelligibility, even in a quiet environment… The inability to understand speech results in a large number of personal handicaps and behavioural changes. Particularly vulnerable are the hearing impaired, the elderly, children in the process of language and reading acquisition, and individuals who are not familiar with the spoken language.

  • Uninterrupted sleep is a prerequisite for good physiological and mental functioning, and the primary effects of sleep disturbance are: difficulty in falling asleep; awakenings and alterations of sleep stages or depth; increased blood pressure, heart rate and finger pulse amplitude; vasoconstriction; changes in respiration; cardiac arrhythmia; and increased body movements. The difference between the sound levels of a noise event and background sound levels, rather than the absolute noise level, may determine the reaction probability. The probability of being awakened increases with the number of noise events per night. The secondary, or after-effects, the following morning or day(s) are: reduced perceived sleep quality; increased fatigue; depressed mood or well-being; and decreased performance. For a good night’s sleep, the equivalent sound level should not exceed 30 dB(A) for continuous background noise, and individual noise events exceeding 45 dB(A) should be avoided. In setting limits for single night-time noise exposures, the intermittent character of the noise has to be taken into account. This can be achieved, for example, by measuring the number of noise events, as well as the difference between the maximum sound level and the background sound level. Special attention should also be given to: noise sources in an environment with low background sound levels; combinations of noise and vibrations; and to noise sources with low-frequency components.

  • In workers exposed to noise, and in people living near airports, industries and noisy streets, noise exposure may have a large temporary, as well as permanent, impact on physiological functions. After prolonged exposure, susceptible individuals in the general population may develop permanent effects, such as hypertension and ischaemic heart disease associated with exposure to high sound levels… Sounds also evoke reflex responses, particularly when they are unfamiliar and have a sudden onset.

  • environmental noise is not believed to cause mental illness directly, but… studies on the use of drugs such as tranquillizers and sleeping pills, on psychiatric symptoms and on mental hospital admission rates, suggest that community noise may have adverse effects on mental health.

  • It has been shown, mainly in workers and children, that noise can adversely affect performance of cognitive tasks… cognitive performance substantially deteriorates for more complex tasks. Reading, attention, problem solving and memorization are among the cognitive effects most strongly affected by noise.

  • Noise can produce a number of social and behavioural effects as well as annoyance… The correlation between noise exposure and general annoyance is much higher at group level than at individual level. Noise above 80 dB(A) may also reduce helping behaviour and increase aggressive behaviour.

  • Examples of vulnerable subgroups are: people with particular diseases or medical problems (e.g. high blood pressure); people in hospitals or rehabilitating at home; people dealing with complex cognitive tasks; the blind; people with hearing impairment; fetuses, babies and young children; and the elderly in general. People with impaired hearing are the most adversely affected with respect to speech intelligibility.
    [http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1998/106-5/forum.html]
    …researchers at… the University College London Medical School Stansfeld identifies nine key groups of health effects believed to be influenced by noise: sleep disturbances, performance
    problems, cardiovascular disease, fetal health, endocrine responses, psychiatric disorders, annoyance, children’s health effects, and health effects due to noise in combination with other stressors.

[http://www.nonoise.org/library/suter/suter.htm]

  • Impulsive or other sudden loud sounds can produce a startle response that does not completely habituate with repeated, predictable exposures (May and Rice, 1971).

  • Simple tasks remain unaffected at noise levels as high as 115 dB or above, while more complex tasks are disrupted at much lower levels… Effects on serial reaction tasks have been noted for continuous noise with C- weighted noise levels of 90 dB (Jones, 1983) and for intermittent noise with C-weighted levels of around 80 dB (Lahtela et al., 1986)… and impulse noise may be even more disruptive.

  • It seems that noise can have even greater effects after than during exposure. The most common after-effect appearing in the experimental literature is a reduced tolerance for frustration, manifested in a series of experiments as a reduction in willingness to persist in trying to solve insoluble puzzles (Glass and Singer, 1972; Percival and Loeb, 1980). This research also indicates
    that predictability of the noise signal greatly reduces its adverse after-effects (Glass and Singer, 1972).

  • There is an extensive literature concerning the effect of noise on social behavior… Matthews and Cannon (1975) found that fewer subjects there willing to help someone who had “accidentally” dropped materials when background noise levels there 85 dB than when they there 65 dB. In a
    subsequent field study, the same results there demonstrated in a background of lawn mower noise, and this time the addition of a cast on the “victim’s” arm enhanced helping behavior under quiet conditions, but failed to do so during the noise episodes… Broadbent (1979 and 1983) cites additional evidence suggesting that subjects will give each other increased amounts of shock and noise when they themselves are exposed to noise, and also cites evidence that noise increases anxiety levels (Broadbent, 1983)… These effects may, to some extent, help explain the “dehumanization” of today’s urban environment.

  • Noise is considered a nonspecific biological stressor, eliciting a response that prepares the body for action, sometimes referred to as the “fight or flight” response. The physiological mechanism thought to be responsible for this reaction is the stimulation by noise (via the auditory system) of the brain’s reticular activating system (Cohen, 1977). Neural impulses spread
    from the reticular system to the higher cortex and throughout the central nervous system. Noise can, therefore, influence perceptual, motor, and cognitive behavior, and also trigger glandular, cardiovascular, and gastrointestinal changes by means of the autonomic nervous system.

  • Rehm (1983) found a significant correlation between noise annoyance and cardiovascular
    disorders. Her data also suggest that those with existing health problems are more annoyed by environmental factors, such as noise. Similarly, Rovekamp (1983) found that subjects who described themselves as sensitive to noise showed significantly greater noise-induced increases in peripheral vasoconstriction than their “normal” counterparts.

  • As a biological stressor, noise can influence the entire physiological system. Most effects appear to be transitory, but with continued exposure some effects have been shown to be chronic in laboratory animals. Probably the strongest evidence lies in the cardiovascular effects.

  • Factors directly affecting annoyance from noise include interference with communication and sleep disturbance, which have been discussed in earlier sections. Other less direct effects are disruption of one’s peace of mind, the enjoyment of one’s property, and the enjoyment of solitude. The consequences of noise-induced annoyance are privately felt dissatisfaction, publicly expressed complaints to authorities, and potential adverse health effects, as
    suggested above… It should be clear, however, that annoyance can connote more than a slight irritation; it can mean a significant degradation in the quality of life.

Other references:

[http://www.kdefe.com/articles/guidelin.htm]
[http://www.wa.gov/ecology/sea/pac/handbook/low/chap12.html]
[http://www.uwcm.ac.uk/uwcm/lb/pep/healthyenvironments/Chapter3.html]
[http://www.vml.ucl.ac.uk/links/vmlweb/info/ilo/research/pan/]
[http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/~sustain/global/sensem/S98/Nunez/Noise.html]
[http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/health.htm]
[http://www.aap.org/policy/re9728.html]
[http://www.hacan.org.uk/proofs/hac61.htm]
[http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/non_auditory.html]
[http://www.szu.cz/chzp/rep97/ak98_06.htm]

Okay gawd mah main man, check it;
You’re missing the point that these people are so graciously trying to get you to acede.

You told me (or posted in rely to my post, same shit) that you admit that you are an asshole.

I am not going to get in a pointless pissing contest about who could beat up who “in real life” or whatever, so let’s fuggedaboutit.

Let’s go hypothetical, okay? If we take something you said, and acknowledge it as a given, for the sake of argument:
-spacing added for emphasis-

Okay, this is fucked up. Public does not give you the right to do anything you want and fuck everyone else. Sure you can wear what you want and pierce what you want (on your own body, not anyone else’s) and joke how you want to. But within reason. Reason being up to a point that you are impressing your behavior on others.

Sure they have the right to ignore you, but by your logic they also have the right to come up and piss on your leg if they don’t like what you’re doing.

Now, back to the argument:
Given A) that in public you can do whatever you please regardless of other’s rights and B) it works both ways then it stands to reason that C)someday this attitude is going to fuck you, big time.

Sorry I sound like your mom. Big fat hairy motherfuckers like me seem to all sound alike huh?

So I know that you could probably kick my puny ass from here halfway to Taiwan and leave my bloody carcass for the fish, but let’s just pretend that I am 6’ 4" and 285 lbs.

Let’s also pretend that I am into ass kicking as a hobby.

Let’s pretend that my part time job is a bouncer, and that I like to here the crunch the palm of my heel makes as it collides with some trippin’ ass motherfuckers face.

So now we’re pretending all these things.

So now let’s pretend you’re a wimpy ass motherfucker like I am in real life (who else would call himself “dictionary” in Latin?) and you are a mouthy little punk.

GAwd,

Before you run that great sweeping greneralization of age:

I am still rather young (20) and I absolutely love to listen to my music loud in my car. I have spent $$ to get a nice system that dosent sound like crap. I listen with the windows down and the tops off on my car…

and when I pull up to a stop light, I turn it down. Its just common courtsey. I have no desire to listen to the rap in the car next to me, so I dont make anyone listen to the rock going on in my car. When I drive away from the light, the volume goes back up.
the total lack any courtsey on your part is what makes this world a more miserable place to live – fuck you

A couple years ago, a born again bible thumper decided that it was his right of free speech in public to stand on the tables in the cafeteria and pester people trying to eat lunch. He was trying out ‘attack preaching’ by saying things like “your girlfriend is a whore”, and then giving you chapter and verse that somehow related.

I wasn’t even there when he caught himself a live one. I hear the guy lived.

[quote]
Still wasting air, eh? Well, kicking you around the block was fun and you did deserve all of it. As expected it was also unproductive. I read with interest your comments about ‘get over it’ and ‘live with it’. I gotta hand it to you, you got balls to admit to such antisocial behavior. But as I mentioned you seem reasonable on other issues, so there might be hope for you yet. **

I dont’ find the attempted termination of a "Dead horse beating(like this topic here), with the phrase “get over it” antisocial at all. Of course I’m reasonable on most things, I’m sane. If I’m an asshole because of this, then fine.

**So, all fun and kidding aside, now it’s time to get really dirty and dredge up some facts. Please keep in mind that these are not opinions, these are the results from field tests and clinical trials. Details are at the bottom of the post, but the short version is:

  • Noise is a physiological stressor and produces aggrevation, increased hostility and aggressiveness, reduced tendency to help a person in need, reduced cooperation, and is a major factor in the dehumanization of urban environments.
  • Prolonged exposure to noisy environments can lead to both temporary and apparently permanent health effects including adverse effects on cardiovascular disease and fetal health.
  • Noise adversely affects performance of complex or cognitive tasks such as reading or learning.
  • Noise increases the use of drugs and mental illness on average in the affected population.
  • Noise interrupts sleep which is needed for physical and mental health. After effects last well into the next day.
  • Noise (particularly in the mid frequency ranges) interferes with speech and particularly victimzes the hard of hearing.
  • Noise affects children, the ill, the elderly, and disabled people the most. **

Sounds like marijuana abuse :slight_smile:

Good research by the way. Now, I’m not sure what sound levels you think I’m talking about here. Let’s figure on a max SPL of 95db at a meter. Now, with the windows and the sunroof down, and small environmental dampenings, we’re talking about a true 80db(?). It’s not that much, and it doesn’t quite qualify as noise “pollution”(have any numbers on what db level that starts at, or did I miss it in all that stuff you quoted?). Another factor is time of exposure.

Now, the loudness of the car stereo still annoys people, but it certainly will not injure passers-by especially because the main “loudness” component is the subwoofer. Your research indicates that Mid-range freqs cause damage. A sub should operate from 20-80/120Hz. Just below midrange.

And, interestingly enough a true home theater(surround sound) system is calibrated for 100/120db and above. that means that all the “Audiophiles” who have invested a dollar or two in their home systems is worse off than me.

Besides, the only time I’ve ever hurt my hearing besides at a concert is with headphones.

Kinoons, my world is a beautiful place to live…what’s wrong with yours?

Oh, and fuck you too…

Lexi, forget about all the bullshit big talk in that post, you started it, I continued it. Besides, do you think I really care to get chest to chest with you over a loud stereo?
Aside from making a lame Momma joke, what was your point?

I will agree to everything in this except for C.

Now, I’m not sure where you’re coming from(Colorado apparently), but I live in the most self-involved, narcissistic, selfish, materialistic, stressed-out, high-paced world. The baby-boomers started it years ago, and this is what we’ve come to.

That’s just the tip of the fucking iceburg. I’m a beauty compared to most of these fucking tools around here. I act no differently than the rest of my culture in my area, in fact, I act better on a whole than about 70% of the rest of them. If this means that I’m near the bottom of the scale in the “Doesn’t turn down his stereo at a stoplight” column, then that’s cool, I can handle it.
I’m truly sorry we’re not going to come to a consensus here Lexi, and all the rest of you for that matter. That’s just the way it it.

Does this mean I’m an asshole? Okay, I guess I’ll concede to that one again.

Does this mean I’m a bad person all around? surely not, and anyone who was to generalize out that far would be totally wrong.

Does my not bending on this issue make me unreasonable? No, it’s just an opinion, and hopefully you can understand that. If not…tough.

Am I violating your person? I suppose I’m violating you as much as I’m being violated by a society that demands I turn my stereo down just because they don’t want to hear “my music”.

I say we return to our regularly scheduled rant, and beat some other dead horse cause this one’s getting old.

-Sam

We’re wasting effort on this cretin. The only thing that could possibly get through to him would have to be delivered physically, something that’s not possible to do over a message board.

Screw you, G, and the self-involved hobby horse you rode in on.

Lick my bag :smiley:

For the rest of you who don’t wish to resort to childish name-calling(I know this is the pit, but I thought I’d try it anyways), I was thinking on the train home this morning.

I have a little hypothesis for you:

Let’s say that in your community people who walk dogs were considered annoying, rude, Discourteous. THere’s no city code that says you can’t walk your dog, and you’re harming no one in the process of doing it.

So, since the majority feel the above is true, is it right, or proper, a violation of your rights to see people in your city walking their dogs?(ludicrous, yes but it’s simply a hypothesis) Is it? They’re not being courteous. THey’re not following the rules set forth by society, and it’s just plain rude.

So can you impose your feelings/beliefs, Etc. on them?

I say no. ANd if you consider the above, and see what I mean in this hypothetical situation, you’ll understand where I sit on this fence.

-Sam

CITY OF SAN JOSE MUNICIPAL ORDINANCES
Title 1 GENERAL PROVISIONS
Chapter 1.13 ADMINISTRATIVE NUISANCE ABATEMENT

1.13.050 Public Nuisance Defined

A. For purposes of this chapter, a public nuisance is:

  1. The maintenance or use of property in the city in a manner that jeopardizes or endangers the health, safety or welfare of persons on the premises or in the surrounding area; or
  2. Real property that has been the situs for nuisance activity including, but not limited to:

** a) Disturbing the peace**; or
b) Illegal drug activity; or
c) Public drunkenness; or
d) Drinking alcoholic beverages in public; or
e) Harassment of passersby; or
f) Illegal gambling; or
g) Prostitution; or
h) The sale of stolen goods; or
i) Acts of violence; or
j) Public urination; or
k) Acts of vandalism; or
l) Acts of lewd conduct; or
** m) Unreasonably loud noise;** or
n) Loitering; or
o) Excessive littering; or

  1. The maintenance or use of property in the city in a manner that violates, or real property that has been the situs of a violation of, any provision of this code or any other city, state or federal law or regulation.

B. Nothing contained in this chapter shall prohibit persons from participating in activity which the city may not proscribe under the United States Constitution or the California Constitution.

Now, you wanna bet on who gets to decide what constitutes “unreasonably loud noise”? Don’t tell me there isn’t an ordinance; like sdimbert, I check the facts.

pldennison said:

I’m unsure of this, but does real property include motor vehicles in these statutes? I’m struggling to remember, but seems to me when they imposed similar fascist noise ordinances in Denver back in the day that special provisions were needed for cars, included how loud they had to be at a certain distance, what equipment has to be used to measure SPL, and how such instruments had to be calibrated.

I don’t know how it’s handled in Ohio (I think that’s where you said you were from), but in know that the requirements for giving someone a ticket (let alone confiscating their property, which must hold to a high level of scrutiny, I would assume) here in Denver are so high that cops almost never do it.

And GaWd, though we aren’t speaking up vocally, some of us are with you. Join the Underground. The sparrow flies at midnight. The password is Orion. :slight_smile:

Lexi – nice to see ya back – missed ya there for a while

GaWd – My world is a wonderful place to live in, its the same world as yours – however I understand that it is common courtesy that makes the world a great place to live. Yeah, we could spend our days in this world thinking “fuck the other guy, I am going to do whatever I want.” If we were all like that, we would spend our days in one perpetual pissed off mood. Next time you pull up to a stop light, think to yourself “would I want the person next to me to do whatever pushes my button, when it is very simple for them to not do so?”

The answer, at least in my case, is no. Therefor it only makes sense to me that if I pull up next to a car at a stop sign or light, I turn my radio down. Why piss off the person in the car next to you when all you have to do is simply turn the radio down for a matter of seconds? Its all about common courtesy.

“Real Property” is “real” estate, E.G. your house. And since you’re such a smart one, look up sound ordinances for Campbell, if I remember correctly they have one.

Kinoons, I’m not sure why this is such a sore spot for people. It certainly doesn’t push my damned buttons. If all people were as sensitive and petty as you all seem to think this world would be a miserable place.

-Sam

Oh, and necros and anybody else tha’ts on my side and not speaking up-- Fuck you spineless, boiling buckets of piss.

I don’t need your help anyways, I seem to be olding my own here.

Sorry PLD< you’re wrong again. Black’s law dictionary defines “Real property” as the following:

If you wish to find a REAL sound law, try looking up Campbell’s sound law. They’re pretty lame about it. A friend of mine who ownde a Geo Metro with a stock “knob” radio once got a ticket because it was too “loud”.

Why does this seem to be such a sore spot for you people? THis is not something that pushes my “buttons”. I could care less if the guy next to me is blasting showtunes. If the world was as sensitive and petty as they handfull of people complaining in here, it would be a miserable place to fucking live.

Oh, and for all of you spineless buckets of piss like necros who are looking on and siding with me…fuck you. You boiling buckets of piss shoulda chimed in a long, LONG time ago. Maybe we could have ended this joke of a thread a long time ago.

-Sam

Sorry for the lack of braincells on this doublepost…

It seems we carried on to another page :slight_smile:

-Sam

If, by “…holding my own…” you mean “jerking off”, you’re right.

What’s wrong dude? Don’t you have anything of ANY value to add to this argument besides a lousy cheapshot about a typo?

Pussy.

-Sam

GaWd said:

Geez, GaWd, you deep-throating fuckhead cockweed. I would have thought you’d want all the help you could get. You’re getting your ass stomped in here, son. :slight_smile:

But if you feel the need to help, please…be my guest.

-Sam

I think what the “big deal” is here is that we don’t really understand how you can say “Well, I can do whatever I want, regardless of others’ feelings” with a straight face. It pushes our “buttons” because most of us consider that attitude to be the height of selfishness. I’ve read tons of your posts, you generally don’t seem to be a selfish person, so I’m wondering what this issue specifically rubs you this way.

Just because something is technically legal doesn’t mean you aren’t making someone else unhappy. If they are being unreasonably unhappy, and you come to that conclusion after thinking about what you are doing (say someone objects to you painting your house beige) then so be it. You decide to keep the house beige. But if it is a reasonable complaint (say someone objects to you painting your house a bright neon orange) then it is up to you to do something about it.

Obviously you are a reasonable person, so I’m sure you have thought about how someone listening to your loud stereo is unhappy and decided for yourself that he or she is being unreasonable or that they are being reasonable but you just don’t care. Both of those things are surprising attitudes because the majority of us agree that this complainer is being totally reasonable. We can’t see how you can think otherwise. You are, of course, legally entitled to think these things. We just wonder about the plain old courtesy aspect.

You have already conceded the asshole point, and I agree that there will be no convincing you. I am only clarifying why (I think, correct me if I’m out of line here guys) it is disturbing to us.

-S

Ding! We have a winner

Thanks, extreamly well put

[hijack]
I corrected your typo for clarity of my response, GoAd. (Make all the typos you want to; at least your meaning always comes through.) The “jerking off” comment was in regard to your continuing presence in this topic, when you’re so obviously out-gunned —morally, intellectually and in most other ways. And I’ve made my contributions to the original post. Now I’ll just sit back and snipe where, when and how I want to. But I’ll do it with regard for whatever reasoning ability you may possess. (Only because Lexicon —a poster who’s content and style indicate someone with perception and class— says you have some redeeming virtues.)

And what’s with the “pussy” comment? Is that the best you can do, little boy? Or is this a reflection of your badass stature? Y’know I really don’t give a good goddamn about that, pinhead. It’s real damn easy to come off as tough on a message board. Maybe you are tough enough to whoop me. Can’t tell here. Doesn’t matter.

You know what tough really is? It’s living in a society by your own rules without scaring the straights. Your philosophy of “I’ll do what I like, 'cause it’s my right to be obnoxious” is simple-minded, immature, and semi-tough at best. Grow some balls and stand up for the common rights instead of just your own. Until you can consider your neighbors you’ll just be another spoiled little Class A consumer, and nothing special.

Oh, and piss off, you whiny little creep.