Pick one.
What does that even mean? I know it can happen, that doesn’t mean I won’t protest and fight back. I refuse to be the victim to anyone! No one is gonna protect me better than me.
You are implicitly insulting women who didnt react the way you think you would.
I am not insulting anyone. You are insulting me by thinking I wouldn’t try to protect myself. I learned how not to be the victim the hard way, by being an assaulted young girl, I refuse to be that ever again, I will fight to the death not to be. And any woman can learn how to do this. It is learned behavior. I know far to well that some people will never be able to do this, but I am not one if them, And I will not apologize for it.
Perhaps when women who have experienced similar things tell you your statements are coming across as insulting, you should listen, instead of bizarrely trying to turn it into an insult against you.
Well what’s the fun in that?
This thread is not about you or your ability to protect yourself. If you could fight off anyone trying to forcibly kiss you then good for you, and I mean that sincerely. But your repeated, giggling boasts about how you think you would have behaved in such a situation are tasteless and offensive in the context of this thread, which is about people who didn’t successfully fend off their assailant.
I didn’t turn it into being about me. Some one else did that. I was stating MY opinion. And what I personally would have done in that situation. But that’s just me, and only me. I cannot presume to know what anyone else might do. I would HOPE they would fight. There are ways to learn how to fight. I know not every woman is the same. MY way works for me in MY life. You are free to do as you please. You all can argue amongst yourself cause I am checking out of this thread. Bye bye! And I don’t think I ever giggled!
Is it just me, or is there something funny about saying “i didn’t insult those women who didn’t bite back. You are insulting me by implying i would be one of those women”?
Here’s a hint - when you’re not the OP, yet you’ve made 3 of the first 9 posts in a thread, you are making the thread about you.
I saw a prank video where a guy hid in a trashcan and popped out as someone walked by. The person walking immediately punched him in the face. It was a split-second reaction and probably happened before guy had fully popped up. I’d like to think I’d do the same thing, but usually when I’m startled, I freeze up for a second where I’m trying to figure things out. It’s like all the pathways in my brain light up at once and the activity is like a traffic jam. So I have no trouble believing that if Oreskes grabbed me and started french-kissing, he’d get a second or two of fun while my brain is processing the “WTF?!?!” signals that are going on.
OK and then what do you do?
Hey, the OP’s back! So what do you think of the response you’ve gotten from women in this thread? Has it changed your mind on whether it could have happened as the victims claimed or nah?
According to the Washington Post article, both women say that Oreskes forcibly kissed them at the end of a car ride, in one case when they were sharing a taxi and in the other when the woman was dropping him off at the airport. So they probably didn’t have long to react before Oreskes was out of the car. In addition to being caught by surprise – the article quotes one of the women as saying she was “frozen” and “shocked” – the women may have been buckled in and were definitely sitting down in an enclosed area. It seems like it would have been physically difficult to, say, knee him in the crotch, especially for the woman who was behind the wheel at the time.
But let’s imagine the women weren’t too stunned to react and did manage to bite, shove, or scratch Oreskes. What do you think he would have done? I’m guessing he wouldn’t have attacked them physically with witnesses present, but he certainly could have used his position and connections to attack them professionally. These women were meeting with Oreskes in the first place because he’d offered to give them career advice, and maybe a job. It’s been about 20 years and they didn’t want to be named in the article “so as not to damage their employment prospects.”
Then you push them off and excuse yourself. I’m not sure what’s so difficult to understand in this situation. OK, I’ve never had this exact situation happen to me, but I did have one where a man (I’m a heterosexual male myself) hugged me after we spent a night drinking, and licked my neck and ear, and I was so disoriented and flabbergasted by what happened that I just politely shoved him off and said my goodbyes. If he had tried to stick his tongue in my mouth, I have little doubt he would have been able to do so, if he timed it right. I mean, what the fuck am I going to do, bite his tongue off? Jesus. Last thing I want is a bloody mess in my mouth. I’d just shove him off and be on my way. And if the guy was a boss or a higher up, I’d probably be pretty embarrassed about it and not say anything to anyone about it, chalking it up to a wild night out drinking that took a funny turn. It doesn’t really take a stretch of the imagination to be empathetic here.
Why does it matter? At this point in the sequence, the tongue’s already been in for two seconds, thus answering your initial question.
This.
Mangosteen, I’m sure it’s not intentional, but when you ask questions like this, it comes across as potentially implying that the women must have allowed the behavior.
I’m totally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and I don’t want to discourage this sort of question, but when you ignore the reasoned, careful replies, it gives the impression that you disagree with them or are discounting them as implausible but are too polite to say so–that you are looking for agreement that the event as described could not have happened and are ignoring other responses.
Possibly there is a gendered difference here: women are certainly more socialized to vocalize agreement and signal disagreement with silence, where men are more socialized to do the opposite.
Having now read the entire article, in which one of the women explains that “I was frozen…I was shocked. I thought, ‘What just happened?’”, I am confused as to why Mangosteen didn’t get how a forced kiss was possible. Maybe he skimmed the article and missed that part, but several posters here offered basically the same explanation and he’s ignored them too.
There’s not a mystery here. Oreskes unexpectedly kissed a woman who was meeting with him for career advice, and the woman was so shocked that she froze up and it took her a moment to process what had happened.
While I’m here, I did want to correct some poor wording in my previous post:
I should have said he probably wouldn’t have tried an obvious physical attack in front of witnesses. I would consider Oreskes shoving his tongue into the mouth of an unwilling professional acquaintance to be a kind of physical attack, but not one the cab driver or passers-by at the airport were likely to notice.
It does occur to me that the presence of other people in the area might unfortunately have also served to discouraged the women from “making a scene”. In such situations you’re often better off making a scene, but in the moment I can understand how the women could have been so confused and embarrassed that attracting the attention of other people might have seemed like it would only make things worse. Particularly since an outside observer might have mistaken the situation for a romantic couple sharing a kiss and then the woman starting a fight for no apparent reason.