I’m reading this article in the Washington Post about the scandal at NPR and I see this sentence.
… two other women had told NPR that Oreskes had kissed them against their will and put his tongue in their mouths during business meetings in the late 1990s.
I can maybe understand that a guy might be able to go in for a surprise, unwanted kiss on a girl’s lips during a business meeting. I would say that most likely she would have time to least turn her head slightly so that he would miss her lips.
What I don’t understand is how this guy managed to get his tongue in their mouth as these two women claim. This guy somehow got these two women to not turn away, not run away, not keep their lips closed and not keep their teeth shut.
Now if he were threatening them with violence or threatening to have them fired, maybe this kind of intimidation might make them allow this kind of behavior, but the women are not claiming this.
Let me say that personally I think this guy is a total asshole and belongs behind bars. I don’t mean to question the story these women are telling. I’m just wondering how such an event could happen physically.
Are there any women dopers out there who could enlighten me? Has something like this happened to you?
I once had a woman kiss me by surprise and put her tongue in my mouth. If somebody does it when you’re not expected it, you don’t automatically think to “defend” yourself. You’re just shocked for the first second or two.
Not everyone’s first reaction to a surprise assault is to fight back, so that’s one thing. And threats don’t have to be explicit, it’s pretty obvious that their job would be in serious jeopardy if they fought against a bureau chief. The idea that people will always instantly fight back against an attack, or that threats don’t count if they aren’t explicitly laid out in detail is… rather divorced from the real world. I know a lot of women who have dealt with assault and harassment, and going against a powerful guy for something as ‘minor’ as a forced kiss is not an easy thing to do.
Maybe their reactions to the kisses were to exclaim “DA FUQ?!?!” instead of tightly clench their lips. While one is screaming/exclaiming/verbally protesting their lips aren’t closed.
Heck I’ve sometimes gotten my dog’s tongue in my mouth while he’s licking my face and I’m telling him to cut it out.
I don’t know my sense of self protection would’ve kicked right in. I don’t like people in my personal space anyway, I definitely would have bitten. And maybe took a whack at someones head!
When I was young and shy and easily intimidated I had it happen. He was much bigger and stronger, and, without going into detail, let’s just say that I felt like I had to be on my best behavior around him. In other words, I stifled the instinct to connect my knee with his dangly bits. I did eventually squirm away, but in the time it took me to work out how to get out of it without pissing him off I about had my face swallowed. (Shudder)
I’ve had it happen to me because it was manifestly not worth it to fight back. Letting it happen means you can get on with your day (or rather, you can sort through your feelings in private). Fighting back means there’s a big fucking problem and you’re at the center of it.
Nope, not me, I would put up a hella protest. After I injured the assailant, preferably!! I am just mean I guess, nah, I am a nice person, really, I am, I swear…
Because most women’s automatic first defence mechanism against aggression is to verbally protest it, obviously. Which involves opening your mouth.
Then you get:
Three or four seconds of “can I twist my head away?” (He’s a bloke, you’re not, so NO)
Three or four seconds of “can I push him away?” (He’s a bloke, you’re not, so NO)
I personally don’t get round to “sock him in the jaw” till at least second 8, which is actually longer than it sounds.
Really what it comes down to is how people generally respond to sexual aggression by people bigger and stronger than them. The ‘‘deer in the headlights’’ is a very real phenomenon, in fact it’s incredibly common among sexual assault victims. People in that state can’t be expected to respond or reason in a way that you are I can as we talk about it on a message board. It’s an entirely different mental state and in many cases your brain has been hijacked by millenia-old lizard shit. When you are physically threatened the last thing you want to do is draw attention to yourself. Neurologically it’s like being locked in a room with a tiger.
Some people can get through the freeze response and do fight back, particularly if they are trained to do so, but we have some forensic nurses where I work whose sole job is to do rape kits and forensic examinations on women (and occasionally men) immediately in the aftermath of a sexual assault. The single most common thing they hear: ‘‘I just froze up and did nothing. I’m so ashamed.’’
Reminds me of something that happened to a guy friend of mine at a dance.
Girl: Hey I bet you a nickel that I can kiss you without touching your lips.
Guy: (thinking she’d kiss him on the cheek) ok
Girl: kisses him full on the mouth I guess I lost. hands him a nickel
it was his first kiss and he felt kind of violated by it.
If he grabbed the back of their neck they may not have been able to get away.
I guess I work for a helluva company. Never in my nearly 20 years has anyone tried to smooch me at a business meeting. I’ve given and received hugs at office parties, but not business meetings.
If you are a man, you just have no fucking idea how easy it is for men to overpower women, culturally, socially, emotionally. Once you do that, the physical part is easy.
Men try imagine if THEY were a woman, but their imaginations never reach to empathy (which would be very painful, of course), so they always fail. So we have question after question after question like the OP.
Try this little though experiment. Imagine you are an orphan child, with no one in the world to defend you. All your life, you have been a slave. There has never been a time in your entire life when you had autonomy over your own body. Now, someone twice your size comes into the room, suddenly grabs you by the back of the neck, and forces his tongue into your mouth. What do you imagine you would do?
That’s a little extreme, but the extreme lack of empathy men have for women – not sympathy, empathy – makes for extreme similes.
How fortunate for you that you’re so much braver and stronger than the women Oreskes assaulted. I’m sure that victims of real-life sexual assault appreciate hearing about how good you are at defending yourself in your imagination. You’re truly an inspiration.
Seriously. I’d like to think I’d do a lot of things, but in the moment who knows. I’d be so by someone touching me in a business meeting that I might go still wondering WTF and “is this really happening?” Freezing in place seems like one natural reaction to a WTF moment.
Both these women were in situations that changed dramatically when their co-worker/boss kissed them unexpectedly. Women are taught to be nice and patient and chances are if they had time to physically react they’d already thought their job might be in danger regardless of the outcome.
I’ve received terrible unexpected kisses and it’s off-putting to the point of making me freeze up; and that’s in potentially romantic situations. In my mind I’m wondering how to salvage the date; I can’t imagine how awful it’d be if I was trying to think of how to save my job.
Look, I never said I was braver or stronger than anyone. Women who don’t think this can happen to them are delusional, take one self protection class and you will learn these things in spades. We learn by doing, ladies. If we’re not taught these things earlier in life, it is not too late. In this cruel world we live in you can’t be too careful! It won’t do anyone any favors for you to come down on me, I am not the enemy! I am sorry I learned early, the hard way, to protect myself!
