Foreskin restoration - effective?

[Kyberneticist]

While browsing through web pages on Celsus I came upon one dealing with the practice of foreskin restoration. Apparently, keeping the head of the penis covered was important in those days when publicly nude (and something called a fibula was used to ensure this). It may have also been due to anti-Jewish sentiments.
Anyway, the article goes into some detail on how this was done (including diagrams). Does anyone have any opinions on how effective/painful/permanent this was, and whether it is still done today?
Not that I would know what it feels like, but I’ve always imagined that being circumcised could be painful at times, with the head rubbing against fabric all the time. ah, I know if mine gets exposed, I notice fairly quickly and um, sheath it. It’s uncomfortable.

Anyway, the article is here:
http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/rubin/

[waterj2]

Why, for the love of God, did I click on that link? That was not something I needed diagrammed.

[Tzel]

*Originally posted by Kyberneticist *
**
Not that I would know what it feels like, but I’ve always imagined that being circumcised could be painful at times, with the head rubbing against fabric all the time. ah, I know if mine gets exposed, I notice fairly quickly and um, sheath it. It’s uncomfortable.
**

Actually, the circumcised penis becomes rather tough. A more depressing way to put it is “desensitized.”

[Foggy]

:eek:
oww!oww!oww!oww!

[Ashtar]

I found the article fascinating–I also did some research here and there to see if i could find an answer to Kyber’s question.

According to http://www.cirp.org/pages/parents/FAQ/ :

Circumcision is done as a religious ritual, and for medical purposes, it keeps the penis easier to clean, reduces the risk of urinary tract infections–and also goes on to mention that circumcised males carry almost no risk for penile (not testicular) cancer.

The purpose of the foreskin is to prevent the glans (the ‘head’) from abrasion and irritation via lubricating it, and also to provide extra nerve endings for the purpose of sexual pleasure. (Lucky uncircumcised bastards! :P)

As Tzel mentioned–if a man is circumcised, the glans kind of ‘dried out’ and becomes tough on it’s own. On the downside–we don’t get as many nerve endings. But we also get the medical benefits–plus the realization that most sexual pleasure comes from the mind anyways, not the body. (Although it certainly couldn’t hurt…)

As for ‘Foreskin restoration’, the same website also has an ‘advertisement’ from an organization called NORM (National Organization of Restoring Men)

NORM claims that the foreskin can be partially restored by ‘taping’ the remaining foreskin over the glans of the penis and letting the pressure ‘stretch out’ the flesh to form a new foreskin.

I’m not sure if that would be painful or not. Every circumcision is a little different–and some people still have a lot of foreskin left over while some only have very little.

A photo-documentary of this procedure can be found at:
http://adult.eskimo.com/~gburlin/restore/image.html
(They are -real- photos, so the faint of heart would best not follow.)

NORM claims that the patients who undergo this procedure generally feel satisfied with the results–and report having more sexual pleasure.

There are also surgical procedures for foreskin restoration, also I didn’t bother looking those up…

Hope this information is informative!
-Ashley

[Ringo]

I really can’t remember if circumcision is painful, but I do know I didn’t walk for a year aftwerwards.

[Kyberneticist]

I don’t know if this is something all uncircumcised males do, but my mommy taught me when I was just a tiny kid to clean there when taking a bath. And 'sides that once a day, sometimes do it at other times too - so I don’t think cleanliness should be an issue.
That just seems wrong - sorta like trimming the labia on women “for increased cleanliness” while ignoring the pain and resulting loss of sensitivity.
Ok, I feel this is turning into a pro/con circumcision thing, which has probably been discussed on this board many times, but one more thing.
'bout that reduced sensitivity. True there is the mental aspect, and there are nerves elsewhere on the whole organ, but wouldn’t that eliminate some of the fun games that are equally stimulating for both partners? It seems sex would necessarily become a thing of more vigorous crude motions…

[Kyberneticist]

Not that those vigourous, crude, motions don’t have their place, especially on the second or third try.

[Kyberneticist]

Sigh. I should read a thread completely, then post all my responses at once. I keep ending up with short little messages as my thoughts bounce around randomly.
Ashtar, about these NORM people, do you have a link to them? I’m wondering if they are aware of these surgical procedures from ancient times. The method they are using, as you said, seems to depend on how much was lopped off.

[Padeye]

As a kid I assumed I was uncircumcised but it puzzled me that I didn’t look like the other boys who had the uh, turtleneck. Some years ago my mother gave me the SD. Our regular doctor wasn’t available so the one that did it apparently just gave me a “trim.” Mom said she almost took me back to have it done again. There aren’t many thing that will make me clap my hands over my ears and start singing loudly.

[Ashtar]

Oops–sorry Kyber, forgot to post the link.

http://www.norm.org
-Ashley

[Kyberneticist]

Oooh… Something else that occurred to me.
I wonder if this “reduced stimulation” means that poor circumcised guys can perform fewer times during the night? I know it takes more stimulation the more times one goes at it.

And in older guys, is there increased performance problems for circumcised guys?
Any studies been done? Maybe it is time to resurrect Roman techniques!

[Doctor_Jackson]

Yes, Kyberneticist, studies of non-circumcised men vs. men circumcised later in life (for religious or medical reasons) have been done. There is an in-depth discussion of these issues in this thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=8190

The answers to your specific questions seem to be: no and no.

[Kyberneticist]

That is a fairly long thead, although I am reading through it now. Do you happen to have links to the studies cited that cover those two nos? Or could you possibly link me to a specific post in the thread (each post has a link too)

But reading it anyway, thanks!

[Kyberneticist]

Dr. Jackson, found your post.
That wasn’t quite what I meant.
First off, you don’t provide a study, but this is the SDMB, after all.
Secondly, if there was a loss in sensitivity, I’d expect it to develop over a lifetime, so one would want to examine some statistically significant samplings of people circumcised for a long time, versus people of same age who were uncircumcised for performance problems.
The study you annecdotaly quote only examined men circumcised later in life, who may not have become callused or whatever, yet.

Also, in that fairly long thread, there is contrary (again anecdotal) claims from people who say their circumcised friends had more difficulty “finishing” when using a condom vs their uncircumcised friends. Anyway, if you could get me a cite, I could look it up in the library tomorrow.

[foolsguinea]

Um, I’m not sure it’s because I was circumcised at birth, but when I was a child, I would get really annoyed & distracted by my numerous daily spontaneous erections. I don’t mean I had more erections because of it, but maybe the exposed glans was more stimulated (against my underwear) during them and caused them to last longer than it would have if I were “uncut”. Of course, I was often in a near-constant state of stimulation due to the glans being somewhat exposed even with the phallus contracted.

I don’t know how different that is from an uncircumcised guy’s experience.

One possibly good thing is that I learned serious sexual self-control. I hear people talk about guys with “blue-balls” claiming to need release. Hunh. I guess I was generally a little blue-balled from my early grade-school days 'til I started really masturbating at 14 or so. I got used to it. Desensitization? Yeah, partly. And getting accustomed to stimulation, and learning to deal with it mentally. Of course, it may be just a physical difference in how much pain I feel. I’ve not ever really been in pain from an erection since my mid-teens. And I’m not sure about before then. But maybe, just maybe, it’s something I trained my mind and body to deal with at a young age.

[Kyberneticist]

Sorry for resurrecting, but I checked my e-mail at Deja, and found some responses from the head of NORM. He responded to the address listed here, and not the one I had written from.
I should have asked him to reply in the thread, and we could have had a new board member with their own unique focus.
But, since I didn’t here’s the e-mails he sent in response to questions I had raised in this thread (I’d asked him to answer questions raised by “Kyberneticist”).
I’ll break them up into separate posts.

Kyber

I don’t know if this is something all uncircumcised males do, but my mommy taught me when I was just a tiny kid to clean there when taking a bath. And 'sides that once a day, sometimes do it at other times too - so I don’t think
cleanliness should be an issue. That just seems wrong - sorta like trimming the labia on women “for increased
cleanliness” while ignoring the pain and resulting loss of sensitivity. Ok, I feel this is turning into a pro/con circumcision thing, which has probably been discussed on this board many times, but one more thing. 'bout that reduced sensitivity. True there is the mental aspect, and there are nerves elsewhere on the whole organ, but wouldn’t that eliminate some of the fun games that are equally stimulating for both partners? It seems sex would necessarily become a thing of more vigorous crude motions…

NORM Director
Response:

The foreskin is a protection for the glans penis and the glans clitoridis. The inner foreskin mucosal tissue contains some 20,000 Meissner’s corpuscles which are the direct connection to the pleasure centers. It is what is cut off by circumcision. Leaving the man or women to use other means to achieve erection and orgasm. (Dr. Edward Laumann’s study indicated that circumcised men go to alternative means of stimulation that intact men do not. (such as toys, b&d and s&m activities, etc.)

The natural secretions of both men and women’s genitals are naturally acidic and protect the individual from infection much like the mouth and eye lids. When we wash with caustic/alkali soaps and do not rinse with clear water for a good amount of time, changing the inner tissue area to an alkali base medium allows for infection to occur. I have been restored for 12 years now and very seldom use soap on my inner foreskin. Always fresh clean water. Intact babies are prone to infection because the mother thinks that the bath water is clean, it is not. Many doctors recommend forcefully pulling back the foreskin of babies, but all that does is rip apart the glans from the inner foreskin which is bound together and will naturally separate over then next 5 to 18 years. Ripping it apart causes raw bleeding tissue to be open for infections. So iatrogenic destruction of the natural protection is unethical and the wrong medicine for sure.

[SqrlCub]

I have a friend who has been trying to have this done but is afraid to. Anyway, there are other ways to “restore” the foreskin that are non-surgical. They are effective but still leave a lot to desire. The one in particular that I can think of is a glans cup/foreskin stretcher device. It works but it takes a while to work. I think of those things like lip plates. You can put the plate in your lip and keep stretching it until you can’t stretch it anymore. I can’t tell you if it is worth it though but I doubt it unless the cosmetic aspect of foreskin or the lack thereof has completely ruined your sex life.

HUGS!
Sqrl

[Kyberneticist]

The responses continue…

Kyber

Sigh. I should read a thread completely, then post all my responses at once.
I keep ending up with short little messages as my thoughts bounce around randomly.
Ashtar, about these NORM people, do you have a link to them? I’m wondering if they are aware of these surgical procedures from ancient times. The method they are using, as you said, seems to depend on how much was lopped off.

NORM Director
Response:

Yes, surgical restoration was attempted not only in Roman times but during WW II to hide the Jewish penis. A good treatise is in “The Joy of Uncircumcising . . .” by Jim Bigelow, PhD. available through NORM.org or NOHARMM.org or ordering it through the author or one of the internet booksellers.

Surgical restoration today has been done but the consequences are most times terrible. see below. NORM only recommends tissue expansion methods which are quite successful.

          SURGICAL FORESKIN REPLACEMENT

The results of Dr Greer’s work, like some other doctors is only 60-70% successful. The cost seems to be prohibitive. Any where from 10 to 50 thousand dollars for full restoration procedures. It takes 3 or more surgeries to complete the procedure. First denuding of the shaft and insertion through the scrotal tissue. 6 months later remove and closure. Then another six months later touch up surgery. Then it might be necessary to have electrolysis to remove unwanted hairs. Dr. Greer who is the most pre-eminent surgeon in this field has recently recommend that tissue expansion by stretching is the most successful method of restoration and should be used by everyone that can.

One fellow has recently gone through similar surgery by a LA doctor and the first graft sloughed off. 6 months later another graft sloughed off. Now he is minus lots of skin and out over 10 thousands dollars. I have spoken with him recently and the doctor has been sued and is no longer able to practice medicine. He left this young man with a flap of skin and no foreskin. He is looking for some other physician to cut it off. He will have many scars and no one knows the end result.

If he had started stretching and kept it up faithfully he would now have considerable extra skin, but he is minus quite a lot of skin and money. There is a list enclosed of doctors that we know of who are willing to do augmentation surgery, which does not remove skin, but contours the skin to keep it over the glans after stretching.

The latest case of surgical restoration is a fellow in England who had the Pryor method used sort of a scrotal wrap. It was done once and it went gangrenous. Then the doctor tried again. Again it went gangrenous necrosis and sloughed off. He now has a completely denuded corpus cavernosa, that is there is no shaft covering at all. He has filed suit and it settled out of court for [pounds symbol - for non-unicode]800,000. Needless to say he is devastated both physically and emotionally. Money doesn’t replace his manhood nor provide pleasure.

Although we all want instant foreskins, it is just not possible. The surest, least intrusive and most successful method is skin expansion. It does not take any longer than the surgical techniques, but is 95% successful without any scars and no where as
expensive.

[Kyberneticist]

Home stretch. How generous of me to sacrifice my work hours for the fight against ignorance.

Kyber

Dr. Jackson, found your post.
That wasn’t quite what I meant.
First off, you don’t provide a study, but this is the SDMB, after all. Secondly, if there was a loss in sensitivity, I’d expect it to develop over a lifetime, so one would want to examine some statistically significant samplings of people circumcised for a long time, versus people of same age who were uncircumcised for performance problems.
The study you annecdotaly quote only examined men circumcised later in life, who may not have become callused or whatever, yet.

Also, in that fairly long thread, there is contrary (again anecdotal) claims from people who say their circumcised friends had more difficulty “finishing” when using a condom vs their uncircumcised friends. Anyway, if you could get me a cite, I could look it up in the library tomorrow.

NORM Director
Response:

The circumcised glans penis and mucosal tissue keratinized over time and becomes desensitized. As one journal “sex after 40” said in their premiere issue, '“more and more mechanical manipulation will be required to achieve erection and orgasm” how true that is. It is hypothesize that much of the impotence in the US is from circumcision but no doctor would admit to that or even study it. They make too much money with impotence clinics and use viagra and implants to solve what they caused.