I don’t agree that saying the same thing to every accusation, regardless of known information, is correct. I believe that is what conservatives want, to pin liberals into a box so that they can then exploit it as a weakness. False accusers may be rare, but they exist, and thus the other side can find them.
What is different here remains that the accuser changed her story, previously alleging sexual harassment, but now details what is full on rape, with stereotypical quotes. Her first version didn’t get traction, so she changed it.
Unlike the stuff that conservatives often bring up, materially changing your story to the point the offense changes greatly increases the likelihood of lying. It has nothing to do with the party of the accused, just evaluating the evidence we currently have. The accusation itself is part of that.
Yes, conservatives will try and argue that we are just showing favoritism, because that is the usual line against our moral choices–that thy are fake. But accepting even someone who seems like a liar at face value has consequences, too. And those consequences can be worse than people saying we’re partisan.
Except none of this is true. AA is basically not a thing. No one uses it. We use other things. And racial relations have only gotten better, not worse, as has racial equality in general.
Furthermore, few really care about the accused, as they don’t bring it up except in situations where they doubt the accusation. As soon as they finally get enough to be convinced, all the talk about the rights of the accused goes out the window. And it’s always sexual crimes that require more proof to reach that line.
By and large, the accused doesn’t get much consequence, particularly if they are powerful. Unless there is enough proof for most people, the accused gets off free with some naysayers. It thus, in general, does not make sense to care about the accused than the alleged victim.
You’ll note that, despite my posts, I never once talks about how sad it would be for Biden if this caught on and derailed his campaign. His feelings do not matter to me on this. Compare that with Kavenaugh and all the claims of it being not fair, as if that was the important part. While liberals kept pointing out that he could just have been replaced with a different conservative judge so it wouldn’t hurt your goals, even though telling you this was obviously against our own goals.
And that, BTW, is what shuts down the idea that our position there was partisan. Or, at least, it should. But, as I said, such is one of the best tools of the opposition. Make one’s enemy out to be a hypocrite, and one doesn’t actually have to take any position oneself.
This is a pretty well-known and often discussed fact, but here’s a variety of places discussing it. Also (since this is The Dope where people love to ignore large portions of a post) let me point out that I specifically narrowed it to ‘white women’ ‘who voted’.
It’s exactly this kind of limp response that has me worried about Biden’s chances - ‘oh, I’m sure they had worse for Sanders, just don’t listen to it’ is utterly pointless to say to me, but isn’t exactly a convincing rebuttal for anyone who’s not. I’m hoping they just don’t feel that this is credible enough to worry about, and are saving their more solid response for later in the year.
You are in for a seriously eye opening experience once the primaries are over and the Trump campaign really opens up on the Democratic nominee. I would have thought that the history of Pizzagate and all of the other unverified, non-credible allegations about Hillary Clinton would been example enough, but apparently not.
Then you must be naïve. Republicans realize that Democrats experience this “shame” thing and, though they do quite understand what that is, they will use it against the Democrats as much as they possibly can.
Trump already went through that process four years ago (Access Hollywood tape, Stormy Daniels, golden showers, etc.) so there isn’t much further he can fall, in public opinion, in that regard. He already hit rock bottom and yet ***still ***won the presidency. So from the Republican perspective, there isn’t much left to fear.
Biden, on the hand, is vulnerable, because his party is the party of #MeToo, and his voters are somewhat likelier to refrain from voting for him due to concerns over such allegations than Trump voters are to refrain from voting for Trump.
I think this demonstrates one of the primary differences, which I’ve seen again and again, in how people see these issues. You (like many others I’ve seen) lumped all these together – even though just one of them (the “grab em by the…” tape) has anything to do with sexual assault or rape. Consensual sex is entirely different from sexual assault and rape.
Doesn’t necessarily need to be public, depending on the findings. If the accusation is legit, then definitely make it public, since there will probably be many more and we’ll need a new candidate. If it’s bogus, then the proof of bogusness (bogosity?) can be released through side-channels to avoid the Streisand effect.
I, personally, am not falling into any “shame trap”, because I feel genuine, increasing hostility toward the piece of shambling human pablum who is destined to make sure that Catastrophe-ONE remains in the WhiteHouse.
There is very unlikely to be some solid evidence of bogusness any more than solid evidence of truth. Releasing an ambiguous report is only going to accomplish putting into the news again, side channel or not.
And your dislike of Biden does not do your suggestion any favors. You aren’t suggesting a prudent path. You would be happy if he got sunk by this.
Maybe. Can’t know this without a thorough investigation. Are you arguing that the Democrats should totally ignore this and any other accusation?
Only if it were very soon! Also, only if he’s guilty, since my dislike of Biden doesn’t extend to the point that I think he deserves to be sunk by false accusations. I don’t think I’d wish that on anyone!
Her: He raped me. Sure I changed my story three times, and it’s clear this new attack is politically motivated, but you have to believe me, that’s the rules.
Joe. I didn’t.
There’s no video, no witnesses. Nothing to investigate.
The only reason for a “investigation” is to get this shameful bit of cheap GOP & Kremlin swiftboating more out in the public eye. And of course people calling for a “investigation” know that, they just want to torpedo Joe.
Note that hurting Biden only means trump wins. It doesnt mean Sanders rides in on a white charger to glory and victory. That is over and done.
Lots can be done. Interview the accuser. Interview Biden. Interview people who knew either and both of them at the time. Check their background and associates.
Is it really that hard to believe that some people think this stuff is hugely important and always worth finding out the truth about?
This may be true – and if so, it’s imperative that the party find out if this is one of many, or just random nonsense, ASAP. If it’s the first of many, we may need to find a new candidate. If we just ignore it, this could sink the party’s chances altogether.
“I’m not really concerned about changing the way society treats accused people, since society generally supports and defends powerful men accused of sexual assault. The exceptions are extremely rare.”
I point out that historically, society frequently treats the accused very poorly. And you think is irrelevant?
If someone said that Black lives matter and they were not at all concerned about the lives of cops and people who aren’t black then it would in fact be relevant to say that al;l lives matter.
But I have never actually seen anyone in a BLM thread saying that the lives of cops and non-black people don’t matter.
Other than Biden’s denial, yes. Absolutely. This should only be mentioned again by anyone if something bad turns up in a very quiet investigation.
Well, I was specifically responding to eschereal there with that line who just said “I feel genuine, increasing hostility toward the piece of shambling human pablum”. Her helpful suggestions parallel yours, however.
Also, only if he’s guilty, since my dislike of Biden doesn’t extend to the point that I think he deserves to be sunk by false accusations. I don’t think I’d wish that on anyone!