The kid needs to make the final decision. Both my kids did. Sometimes there is something about a school you like which seems trivial but which is an indicator of something that is important. However that doesn’t mean parents should be hands off. My parents were, which was fine for me but not so fine for my brother.
My daughter went to Berkeley half time her senior year of high school, and was officially matriculated. She chose not to go there, which was the right thing for her. The problem back then at least is not the courses, but that those majors are so in demand that admission to them is limited. This came directly from the Berkeley people. There are a lot of majors which you can choose late or change into, but CS and EE are not in that list. It is not true everywhere, but is true for Cal.
I’m all for kids working. My oldest was working on a TV series at 12. Her hourly rate was more than mine. And both my kids had jobs in high school. But, all in all, getting college right was more important than the jobs.
Some plumbers make 100k, but that is nowhere near the norm. A much higher portion of Lawyers, doctors and CPA’s make 100k; and the plumber making 100K is more equivalent to the lawyer who makes 300k; it’s like a Venn diagram with a little bit of overlap in the middle.
I would say just get the hell through college when you’re young if you have the kind of support the OP’s kid has; its almost a no-brainer to me. There are a lot of things to consider when just going the trade route:
For starters, if you go to college it does not hinder you from going into a trade later. It is better to at least start at a cc while younger and do not have a family than trying to go back when you have a family, job etc.
Many jobs that did not used to require a degree now do. HR departments use the degree as a first level filter. I am not saying this is good or bad, but it is the reality. I have met people who simply could not get promoted because they did not have that piece of paper. One worked for Apple, did really well at the store level, was recommended for promotion yet was not approved by HR because he did not fill the degree requirement. Another person I met who worked in real-estate had the same problem - the promotion was given instead to someone with a music degree. Where I work now, they require a college degree for new management hires; here you can still work your way up internally from the bottom without a degree, but external management hires are degreed.
There is a fair amount of prejudice in the world against blue collar workers. It will effect his dating options - not nearly as serious a thing as the other 2, but not something to completely dismiss either.
The risk of being unable to work due to injury is of course much greater for people who have to be on their feet all day or work with their hands.
I think you should push him to just get the piece of paper in anything. It doesn’t matter what it is in, it doesn’t have to be a top school, any degree will prevent many doors from closing.
No, I don’t think so, he actually seems happier than he has been in a long time.
I really do appreciate everyone’s answers, I feel a lot more at peace. We’ll go on some college visits, including community college, and follow his lead and I no longer feel like this is something I have to get right. Some of my momentary heightened emotion was almost certainly caused by my own regrets from the same age and wishing I could “get it right” for me.
I’ve got to hand it to my parents, they did a great job of making me feel like they thought I was fantastic no matter how questionable my decisions as a young adult were. I must follow their example.
A journeyman plumber in St. Paul, Minnesota makes $36.92 an hour, plus benefits - including medical, dental and pension. That’s five years post high school graduation if you go straight from high school into trade school. If you go the union path, the union pays for your schooling after the first year, and first year of trade school is $6k. Plus, once that first year is done, you are working at a percentage of journeyman rates.
When you consider the extra years working, the small cost of school, and the benefits package - some of the trades are really much better deals than becoming an attorney.
It’s a still a Venn diagram to me. Focusing on the top end without consider the total employment and salary picture does not help the OP in his or her decision making.
I’m not trying to knock plumbers(I’m in a trade that plumbers even look down upon), but if you were the highest paid plumber, you would make about as much as the lowest paid lawyer; there is really very little overlap. Yes, law school is expensive, but these salaries more than make up the difference - that’s why people are will ing to pay that price - in general.
On a brighter note though, if you wanna make the big bucks, you can do that working for the DC Metro as an elevator tech.
Lawyers don’t get overtime. The ones I know (and I just got done with a law firm contract) work 60 hours a week. Plumbers do, when its available. So change the $110k to hourly, add in the student loans most lawyers graduate with - and compare to a union job (that’s the critical part - or open your own plumbing business and hire some plumbers - if you are going to unplug toilets non union it isn’t a good job) and its a good job. Plus an attorney won’t make a living for at least eight years out of high school. A plumber starts earning during his apprentice period (again, if you are union) - one year out of high school.
(Pipefitting is better - fewer non-union pipefitters. I think electricians tend to be more union than not as well. Driving truck - they killed the union and that is now a really hard job for not much money - it used to be a hard job but paid well for someone with a high school degree and truck driving course through a tech school).
Elevator techs are in really short supply -when I had my law firm contract I also had one for a building reno and they were waiting on the elevator techs to get their occupancy certificate. Those guys fly all over the country and are seldom out of work.
The cites I provided have the hourly breakdown. The average total debt taken out for law school, not including undergrad, is $84,000 - $122,000 - including tuition and living expenses.
It’s fine to be a plumber, it’s also fine to be a lawyer IMHO - whatever floats your boat. When I worked in construction a long time ago, the older workers were constantly talking about how they sent there kids to law school, med school, and were very happy if they got an engineering degree. My brother in law’s mother cried when he dropped out of engineering school, she did not want him to have to work like his dad who was a union plumber. On the other side of the coin, there were pipefitters with law degrees, they got “bit by the bug” is how I heard it described.
I think people should do what they want, but I think the idea that a plumber is likely to have anything approaching the lifetime earnings or social status of a lawyer is just a complete fiction.
I’ll agree with all of that. But I’m also pointing out that you have seven additional years before you start earning, you have the NPV of student loans, and you’ll work a lot more hours as an attorney for more social status. And, with the additional years and student loans - yes, more money, but is it a worthwhile amount of more money?
Plus, a kid who hates school is unlikely to go down the college path to finish law school, become a doctor or a CPA. Plumbers do well when you compare them to degrees in Philosophy, English, Social Work or Education - especially once you add in the years and cost of education.
Yes, and studying anything—law, medicine, accounting, or whatever—may not be a barrel of fun, but if you don’t at least find it kind of interesting, what makes you think you won’t be miserable spending your life doing that thing?
The amount an average lawyer makes over a career more than makes up for the loss of early income, even taking into account NPV - the difference is so great I’m not even going to bother plugging the numbers into excel to prove my point - if you want to try it yourself, be my guest. I think the whole financial argument is a nonstarter. I think a more realistic con of being a lawyer is the long hours and stress - which are pretty real.
I do not think it is inherently better or worse to be one thing or another but being aware of the clear and unambiguous pros and cons is the most important thing. My opinion is that people should do what makes them happiest overall.
The OP is looking for advice; I think factual advice based on measured data should be included in the conversation along with anecdotal information - I think both can be very helpful IMHO.
Plumbers don’t do particularly well in comparison to any degree. Any undergraduate major can make you eligible for law school, the CPA exam (w/ an additional 30 credits in most states), med school, not to mention Phd programs or getting an MBA. Every major makes significantly more on average than a plumber or pretty much any trade. The numbers are pretty clear. Not to mention that even being something like a police officer now often requires a degree, and a liberal art degree will fill that box.
If someone wants to do a trade they will have a lower social status, period. I mean, maybe there are some people and employers who are blind to social status and every one of God’s creatures is a wonderful little snowflake (I actually love people like that, unfortunately there are not too many in DC), but on the whole it will have an effect on how people perceive you, it will also affect the social circles you will be in and the people you will date.
A life in the trades means you are part of a class of people that on the whole makes significantly less money. Without a degree, the opportunities to either move up in a company or go into different careers are severely limited. The option to not do physically demanding work is much less available - this starts to weigh on one when they are in their late 30’s.