Because if we say “You can talk about this, this, and this, but not that” it would solve the problem for a while…until “that” gets redefined as insulting language, or speaking against the government…
The problem is Phelps is not just any old conservative pastor; he’s a violently abusive lunatic running a dangerous cult that cannot be dignified with any characterization but a virulent hate group. There’s nothing wrong with limiting free speech under certain circumstances, like when it’s so blatantly foul, disgusting, and agressively hostile. I’m not advocating mob violence either, but when you let a psychopath and his gang of misfits run around spewing filth unhindered, one might consider the potential for well-intentioned backlash and fucking do something about it in an official capacity. Surely there must be some way to lock the fucker up without violating some cherished civil liberty. Phelps is a monster, and his followers are either monsters themselves, or so completely brainwashed they need professional help.
I don’t think there is a way to shut them up legally. One of the videos on youtube was a clip from Bill O’Rielly’s show where he said they’re lawyers…they know how to work the system so they stay out of legal trouble. I wouldn’t want to see free speech cut down just because of those idiots. But these people are evil…I mean Nazi-Evil Evil. They hate anyone who doesn’t agree with their lunatic views and they spew that hatred to anyone within earshot. Hangin’s too good fer 'em, but since vigilante justice is out of the question we have to hope that God or Fate or some cosmic force wipes them out.
The tone of voice used by the guy who said, “OK, we’ve got a broken window!” was creepy, and spoke volumes. He sounded like a baseball announcer cheering a home run by his team.
I get the feeling that the thing that would torture these people worst would be if everyone treated them the way Ned Flanders would treat a drunk – politely, but with a little condescension (although I don’t know that I could manage that if confronted by them).
I don’t apologize for wishing the broken van window was the result of a one-gallon Molotov cocktail.
I grew up with the understanding that freedom was the right to do anything as long as it didn’t impinge on the freedom of another. I understand now that is a fairly simplistic stance but the core issue is the same. Those families have a right to a respectful funeral for their children, whether they died in a war or at the hands of a madman.
I have the freedom to hear a speaker without having them shouted down by modern day Brown Shirts intending on blocking the information offered while hiding behind the First Amendment.
I have a Right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness and that is not afforded me by assholes like Fred Phelps and Company.
I feel that when someone misuses their freedoms in a twisted manner to deliberately impinge on the freedoms of others they have effectively voided their rights.
Two weekends ago I attended the funeral of a fallen soldier killed in Afghanistan as a part of the Patriot Guard and met the Parents and Grandparents of this boy and remember hearing that Phelps and Co. may show up. The look of pain in the eyes of these people and the thought of the effect those assholes may create needlessly was difficult to come to terms with for many there, myself included.
Fighting words- Chaplinsky V. New Hampshire.
I suppose we could scroll down the above case to the other cases- Cohen V. California, etc. Oh, and Terminiello V. Chicago is relevent too:
I’d likely argue that the Phelps’ actions do lead to clear and present danger- you saw that riot. That said, how the hell do you substantiate “evil”?
The only way for decent people to be satisfied on this subject and stop being torn by on one hand wanting to kill them with you bare hands, or turning your back and saying, “Well, that’s free speech.” is for my favorite impossible scenario.
God himself shows up and does terrible things to Phelpsco in front of all of us, all the while making sure the receivers of the torture know WHY they’re getting it from the man himself.
See, but I’m agnostic. I don’t really believe. But you could bet I’d become a devoiut hermit tomorrow if he would do that for me. See, God? I’ll follow if you could just do this one thing for me. Kthx.
And of course there is no such thing as devoiut. That word is completely without merit. :smack:
But this sort of reasoning means that any particularly unpopular view, if taken by others in offense and leading to a stand-off, is not protected by free speech. Yet, what is the point of ffree speech if we do not protect unpopular opinions? Unchallenged speech doesn’t need protection.
Now see, I was discussing this with a friend yesterday. As I see it, there isn’t a goddamned (teehee) thing that would change the minds of those morons. God himself/herself/itself could fly down and start smiting them mightily, but odds are it wouldn’t change their moronic opinions one bit. Hell, they’d probably say that isn’t the REAL God, just some chump sent by the homer-sex-uals. Real God hates America and Fags and New Orleans and fluffy bunnies, dontchaknow.
Well of course and that is a perfectly valid point. You are completely right that the unchallenged isn’t what the rules are for. That said, if me standing on a street corner and yelling that I want death to all the wetbacks causes a riot among the vast majority of the town- a riot that leads to destruction, injuries, and death- you really have to wonder if that speech should be allowed.
I mean, I’m in no position to judge what is OK or not- I’m not a Supreme Court justice (I know, I know. Sorry guys, I know I’ve lead you on this long). To me, something that is uttered just to be hateful, just to cause violence, and just to piss people off- all with no real purpose- is pointless. Don’t get me wrong, an asshole has every right to be an asshole (third grade Diosa says: It’s a free country!!!), but be an asshole for a reason.
Perhaps all of this stems from my question of whether the Phelps’ actually believe the idiocy they spew. Part of me really wonders if they just say what they say and do what they do for attention. Like I said, I’m not in any position of authority to justify or villify their speech on a national level, but I personally can’t help but think they are being dicks for the sake of being dicks. And sometimes being a dick just to be a dick can be dangerous to everyone around you.
Was I the only one who thought some of the Phelps girls were kinda hot? 
The answer, quite disturbingly, is I think at least some of them believe it completely, or are so deranged what exactly the “believe” is pretty much beside the point. Don’t have a link at the moment, but I’ve read some testimonials of family members who fled his little cult, and it sounds like Phelps is truly a special kind of crazy. He’s not trolling, he’s the real fucking deal, whatever sick notions go on in his head. Those who follow him just disseminate the poison. And that’s what it is, as far as I’m concerned: Poison. I guess if the law is such one can’t stop him, so be it, but I personally don’t think his activities are in any way worthy of the freedoms that allow him to be such a serial abuser, and I’m not going to be the slightest bit worried about my civil liberties if somebody finally finds a way to nail the moonbat. He’s a very rare case, and I don’t think much that could happen to him could easily be extrapolated to society at large.
Yes.
[QUOTE=tdn]
The thing is, I don’t think that would work. They’ve proven again and again that they will provoke until they do get a response[li]. Hence the ever-increasingly absurd attacks. Ignoring them is like ignoring someone who taunts you, then pokes you, then repeatedly punches you in the face. At some point you have no choice but to respond. That’s their game.[/li][/QUOTE]
You make my point for me.
*(emphasis mine)
I’ve always wondered what would happen if people made a very tight circle around the Phelps protesters and then to proceeded to point, jeer, make jokes & funny faces and laugh uproaringly for an hour.
Yep, it was the pastor of the church I was a member of at the time, First Lutheran Church, in Topeka, Kansas. Our minister was Rev. W. Gerald Weeks. The Phelps showed up to holler at an early, outdoor service. After it was over, Pastor Weeks went over to post a yard sign, on church property, about 20 to 25 feet away from them. The sign was one that was popular for a while, in town, “God’s Love Speaks Loudest”. While pounding in the sign the head of the hammer popped off and the Phelp’s clan said it was a deliberate attack. Four of their *young, healthy,*men surged onto to the church lawn, to take down Rev. Weeks. As a middle-aged, slightly tubby guy, he must have seemed awfully intimidating.
They sat on him until police arrived, in spite of protests from our church members. Then they charged him with assault. So the church had to counter-file. Both sides agreed, eventually, out of court, to drop charges.
I really liked Rev. Weeks. He told me later “I thought I was going to die with two tons of Phelps on top of me.” He had physical therapy for a wrenched back. The thing that made me really sad was that I don’t think the majority of the congregation supported him enough. They just wanted the whole incident to go away. He took a call to another congregation within a year after the court stuff was over.
When the WBC first started picketing in 1992, I too thought that they could be ignored and go away, that after a while they would claim a moral victory. Boy did I ever underestimate their hate.
They are one of the rare exceptions. We* have * to pay attention, even if it gags us, because they are dangerous themselves. And nasty. The rector of an Episcopal church caught one of their women letting her kid pee onto church flowers, while the WBC was there picketing. At that same church, before they got an individual injunction against the WBC, I was, several times, cheek by jowl with WBC picketers(the church put out LOVE signs of their own, and the bishop even came and stood with us!)
Now, I’m not given to flights of fancy, but when Fred would walk the picket line, checking up on his troops, I could feel a sort of chill as he passed. There’s something seriously strange, as well as evil, about that guy.
As much as the Improv Everywhere crew generally annoys me, I’d love to see them exercise *their *First Amendment rights at the expense of the Phelps clan. Maybe Sacha Baron Cohen and Tom Green could come along and help out. 
You know, at first I read this and thought that Cohen could easily make up a character and join the Phelpses, coming up with more and more outrageous things to shout and eventually embarrassing them and providing great entertainment for us.
Then I remembered that we’re talking about the Phelpses and there is no such thing as too outrageous and vile to be embarrassing for them. I think Mr. Cohen would end up finding himself the protest leader, with the WBC cheering along behind him. The embarrassment all ends up on the wrong people in that scenario… sigh
There is only one correct response to this fucker. It’s stamped 30-06. Illegal? You bet. Vigilantism? Sure is. Generally not something to advocate? Not in any way shape or form. Appropriate in these unique, extreme circumstances? Absolutely. Someone should take the shot from well beyond any perimeter the cops have set up and do an immediate fade as soon as they nail Fred and Shirley. Understand that this is an illegal act, and it should remain an illegal act, and if it were to happen the police should investigate and try to catch the shooter-but if someone pulled it off and got away, I would give a little cheer. I guess that makes me a bad man. shrug I can live with it.