Please, give me a break.
If the dude is paying half the freaking bills there than yes he does have a right to dicipline under the parents guide lines.
It has nothing to do with boyfriend trying to be somebody’s dad; but more to do with “This is my house/ My rules.”
You didn’t mention if this guy has children of his own. You may want to suggest a parenting class (have your ex suggest it). He may be completely clueless on the whole thing and he’s letting his jealousy get the better of him. It might help. The kid thing doesn’t get easier as they get older. It would serve him well to get some real perspective on what living with kids, pre-teens and teenagers really means. He may decide it’s not his bag and move on.
Quicksilver, I’m going to be the voice of dissent here.
If a mother would yell at her kids and occasionally shake their arms, for petty stuff like leaving the milk open and not putting the ketchup back, we’d think she was a tad overreacting. We’d assume she was overwhelmed, or just that she needed to be informed that her methods won’t work.
We wouldn’t be calling the cops on her. We wouldn’t feel like she deserved a puch to the head.
So, what is different here?
That he is a guy? Should guys have more self-control then women? Can’t guys be trusted with children, at all?
Is it that he’s not the kids stepfather? He lives with them; how long before he has earned that right? Do you want to engage in a territorial fight with him, a fight that might worsen the relationship with your wife, and maybe with your children, who will be forced to take sides?
Or is it just some male or parental instinct thing? You said you were seeing red. But if you look at it rationally, it is not about how you react, what matters is how the kids react to it. What do they want you to do? Maybe listening to them is already enough. Maybe they might benefit from learning how to cope with unreasonable behavior.
When I was a kid, I told my mom once about a bully in the playground. Just that one time, she changed into a tiger, dragged me to the playground despite my protests and yelled at some kid who was still there (not the chief offender, just a sidekick) and pulled his arm so the kid rean away crying. I felt horrible. I was afraid of the consequences. I didn’t feel it would help. I was afraind of my mom in tiger-mode. And, it didn’t help squat with the bullying. She didn’t spoke to me about the event before or after, she just felt pleased with herself.
I’ve never told my mom anything again. Even at the time, (I was seven or so) I felt her actions had not that much to do with me, just with her own feeling of indignation.
Seems like the guy has a more hands on approach to discipline. My dad used to slap us or bitch a lot about silly things. Silly for us anyway. Many think that is a normal way to educate kids… but if you never ever physically punish your kids… I guess the contrast certainly would scare them.
You just have to determine how much of this is lack of patience… lack of well defined rules for punishing/educating kids. Maybe this guy thinks its normal to roughly handle badly mannered kids. Your Ex-wife should make it clear that the kids aren’t too be physically intimidated.
I have the impression maybe that your ex-wife feels sorry for the kids and might be going soft on them ? That her companion might think he is making up for that softness ? A lot of speculation… but try to figure things out as much as possible.
Maastricht - Not that I don’t appreciate supportive comments from all the other posters (I do. Very much.) but I also like to hear well thought out dissenting points of view. Helps me keep a check and balance dialogue going in my head.
I’m not looking to overreact here. Taking the guy out back and beating him senseless is probably not warranted at this point. Neither is CPS because I don’t see any hard physical signs of abuse. Many would argue that if/when I do, it’s too late. That may be so but it’s how our justice system works. You can’t accuse somebody of doing something they have not actually done. Or to my knowledge, threatened to do.
As much as I love my kids (and I do), I have to take into consideration that they are capable of a level of manipulation to get what they want, whish is their parents back together. Now that’s not likely to ever happen but as it’s been mentioned, it’s not out of the realm of possible motives for their complaint.
On the other hand, this complaint is not a regular occurance. It is the second in a year or so and the level of described “abuse” has not escalated. I warned the mother last time about the possible consequences and didn’t confront the boyfriend (that took some restraint). I’ve warned the mother more sternly again this time and will not confront the boyfriend - for now. I think she is sufficiently concerned at this point for the welfare of our kids that it won’t go unmentioned between her and dick.
As for the territorial thing… damn right I’m territorial. He’s got two kids of his own to discipline any way he wants. They don’t happen to live with him but he does see them (one is an adult now, the other only seven). So if he feels like exercising his parenting skills, he’s got an outlet. My kids are not for him to physically touch in anger for any reason. So yeah, I’m very protective and I’m very concerned that this may escalate. I’m also concerned that the kids may be exagerating. It may take a while for me to figure out where the line is but I will. Until then, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to fire a warning shot across the bow and make sure he and my ex know that I’m not ignorant or complacent when it comes to the welfare of my kids.
I think your wife needs to tell him that you guys didn’t exercise physical discipline and that is how you intend to continue. He may have been a spanker or a yanker or whatever with his children, but that is not how you two have agreed to discipline your kids. I think if she lays it out that way, and he continues to chose the physical route, she’ll dump him. It sounds like she’s reading from the same page you are.
“Pinky, promise me something. Never breed.”
Stranger
Hell, I think in a parent’s absence (and that includes if mom is in another room) *any *adult present has the right and responsibility to discipline. But touching kids as part of discipline is such a…well…touchy subject, that it shouldn’t be done without clear, prior permission from all the parents involved. Which this guy doesn’t have. So his right to discipline is limited to non-controversial means like talking and time-outs. IMHO, of course.
Nuke dick from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
Really.
Always the direct approach from you. I like that you operate without grey areas. LOL!
Trouble is, she’ll become my problem again and I really don’t want that responsibility.
QS - I’m a “step parent” - my job as far as kid goes? If we’re home, just the two of us, pass message along to his father where he is and what time he’ll be home. Other than that, the only thing I’ve ever done, six years ago, when he was out very late at 14 having left no message, is ask him, when he came in, if he had a quarter. He dug into his pocket, still at the front door, gave me the quarter. I passed it back to him and said “next time, use it to call your father - he’s almost crazy worrying about you”.
Other than that, mother and father are still very much involved (although he lives at our place).
Of course, I have told him confidentially, if he’s any where, any time and is for some reason scared to call his parents, he can always call me, any where, any time, for any reason and I’ll be there. But I’ve also told my neice the same thing.
Now he’s 21. We’ve had some rough spots but generally it’s going well.
My advice: next time it happens, show up immediately upon call from kids. You’ll know the whole story when you walk in the door.
<can’t post to thread - test>
…weird… I’ve got an update but I can’t seem to post it in this thread.
You could email it to another Doper and they can post it for you. I wouldn’t mind, although in a couple of hours I probably won’t have Dope access.
Rather than going straight to the police, consider contacting Social Services, they take fast action regarding children and they know how to handle things delicately.
Well kids can exaggerate and possibly out of resentment of the situation… but don’t dismiss it or they’ll feel as though they can’t depend on either of the two closes advocates they’ve always known–their mom and their dad. Communication is key, even if it’s communication that’s exagerated… I’d also consider family counseling… you and your ex have made your transitions–it’s the kids that will have a more difficult adjustment.
Ditto to not alienating your ex-wife, you two will have to work together to prevent your children from being forced to take sides–a more long-term harmful repercussion.
good luck.
Well… the sense of wryness is gone but perhaps I can come close…:
Having collected my thoughts and calmed down I emailed my ex today and re-iterated that it was important that we were on the same page as far as the established limits of discipline her boyfriend was expected to follow and If she had trouble discussing this subject, I’d be happy to address it with him myself. (Not a veiled threat.)
In reply she informed me that she and the boyfriend had a long discussion last night and, I quote, “they were good”.
<stunned silence>
Well… as long as you know… “they’re good”…
WTF?
No clues as to the contents of the discussion or the outcome. No clues as to whether any kind of physical punishment was doled out. Just that “they’re good.” Well I can’t tell you how relieved I feel at this point. :rolleyes:
So that and some obscure non-sequitor about “it takes a village” to raise children and that she doesn’t want to raise spoiled kids who are rude to her boyfriend.
No reflection on the fact that the kids are never rude to anyone in our respective families.
No reflection on the fact that the kids have only received high praise from their teachers, coaches, other parents and complete strangers alike.
No reflection on the fact that if they are behaving out of character towards dick, perhaps the blame lies with him and not the children. Perhaps he hasn’t earned and doesn’t deserve their respect?
Plus, yesterday the excuse was that the kids were transfering blame on him for her disciplining them. In her reply to me today, the story seems to imply that they were punished because they were rude to him.
I smell rationalization and excuses.
It’s hard to know for sure what’s going through kids’ minds; what they’re perceiving real or exaggerated… I do know that if they’re upset about the divorce or the friction between you and their mom, or the tension between them and their mom and her bf, or all of the above, their frustration will manifest in some way… even if they’ve always been perfect children, not to suggest that they may be exaggerating the situation, I’m just saying that they WILL communicate to you (verbally and non-verbally) how they’re feeling, and HOW you deal with that communication is very important for everyone involved.
I hope before you and your ex draw the line in the sand, you consider–for the sake of your kids–family counseling… at a minimum, have the kids meet with someone (school psychologist or hire someone professionally trained in families dealing with divorce) and allow that person to give you further insight on how your kids are doing and how you both can help them get through this transition, which will include new people in their lives.
You got an affirmative response from the ex…lame as it was. I think I’d then go to the children and:
Tell them you spoke to Mom about it and will continue to do so.
Remind them that they are to be respectful to people (and how you are aware that this is their normal behavior but you’re just reminding them), but that “respect” doesn’t mean they have to take abuse from anyone.
Remind them that you want to hear from them immediately if he ever does it again.
Ask them periodically how things are going with the BF, just so they know you haven’t forgotten the issue.
By the way, what did “Dick” do to earn that name (other than this incident)?
Cute. Try that in my house and you won’t see the inside of it again, and depending on how you decide to ‘discipline’ her you might be talking to the cops soon.
It’s one thing to say ‘Stop pulling my hair, it hurts’ or ‘Please don’t throw that Faberge egg in the air, it will break’ and another to decide ‘I need to spank this child to discipline it’. I know you didn’t advocate spanking, but when you say ‘any adult has the right to discipline a child’ you are not taking into account the fact that only the parents have the right to decide how the child should be disciplined. I can’t allow my daughter to stay alone with certain members of my family, ever, because I know their idea of ‘discipline’ is way too different from mine.
As for the OP, I agree that sitting down and talking may be a good idea, but if the guy is a scary bully type, he might play nice to your face and then turn around and take it out on your kids. I don’t mean he’ll head home and beat them, but he may save up any anger he feels at being called out and get it all over them, later, because that’s kind of what people who feel like they have to push around other, tiny people do.
I definitely agree that you should talk more to the kids and find out what they think should be done, and also go with the ‘panic button’ option of having them call whenever there’s a problem.
I dunno your kids, but 6 is a tad young to be that subtlely manipulating–that sounds more like 9 or 10 to me. Even with direction from the 9 year old, most 6 year olds just can’t sustain the mendacity for long.
It sounds to me like a couple things:
He is more impatient and also more physical than they are used to (IMO, his methods of parenting suck, but I digress)
they see him not only as interloper, but also as unpredictable–something sure to raise the anxiety of any kid, so they might be more aware of his behavior and perceive it in a negative light. Are they exaggerating a bit for you? Maybe–but the anxiety is there–listen to them. Show them they are loved–they need this reassurance now (as ever).
Ex seems to want this all to go away–and if you can all just smooth over the rougher, uglier bits, than all will be well. THIS is the biggest red flag to me–I think that her lack of response to this issue speaks volumes about her priorities and needs. The whole “it won’t happen if they’re good” makes my eyes bug out and the hair on the back of my neck rise with fear. Do we all not know that “good” is a moving target? Those kids don’t need to be “good”–they need to be kids.
the kids may not be able to articulate it, but they are aware on some level that Ex is putting them behind New Guy. One should not be behind the other, they should be given equal merit, at least (many would argue that the kids should always come first–I disagree, but ONLY if there is no safety or security issue at hand).
You and Ex need to sit down face to face and talk about this. If that results in nothing, you need to talk to New Guy, alone–without Ex present. No macho shit, but with gravitas and dignity–New Guy should be told that these kids ahve an advocate. No need to threaten cops or social service, if these folks ahve any kind of clue.
If they remain clueless, and it continues or escalates, then it’s time to call in outside people.