Fuck the fashion police.

[Kimstu]

@hajario

My two examples are perfect counterpoints of one another.

Not really, given that Rastafari and its legend of ancient Jewish heritage long pre-dates the social phenomenon of “cultural appropriation” debates. Jewish imagery and identification is now part of a decades-long tradition of Rastafarianism.

Jewish kids wearing dreadlocks, OTOH, is not a decades-long tradition in Judaism. Just because your hair (like many other non-Jewish and non-black people’s hair) would “naturally” form dreadlocks if you didn’t groom it differently doesn’t make dreadlocks traditional in Jewish culture.

Mind you, as I said before, I personally don’t have any problem at all with white kids wearing dreadlocks or Chinese dresses or saris. And I hope eventually in a more highly evolved world there would be lots more multidirectional sharing of cultural heritage in all sorts of ways.

But that doesn’t mean that the two particular examples of sharing of cultural heritage that you identified are actually as analogous as you think they are. Afro-Jamaicans in the mid-20th century adopting some Judaic history and imagery (largely via their experience of Christian religious practice and Christian study of the Bible, by the way), as part of their socioreligious movement, is not a “perfect counterpoint” to American Jewish youths in the 2010s wearing dreadlocks as a fashion statement largely influenced by black hairstyles.

[Malleus_Incus_Stapes]

@Kimstu

Hmmm, I don’t know about Rastafarians, but I have definitely seen, say, “Messianic Jews” aka “Jews for Jesus” criticized for cultural appropriation. Along with non-Jews who wear kippot or star-of-David jewelry or light a menorah at Chanukah or get tattoos of Hebrew characters.

So no, it’s not like complaining about cultural appropriation of Judaism isn’t an actual thing.

For what it’s worth, I am not at all offended that the Pope wears a kippa.

With Jews for Jesus, I don’t think the outrage is so much over “some goy is wearing a kippa” as “missionaries are dressing up as Jews in order to convert us”. Because that’s basically what JfJ is- Christians painting a Jewish veneer on Christianity in order to trick Jews into thinking that they’re still practicing a form of Judaism.

[asterion]

@Malleus_Incus_Stapes

With Jews for Jesus, I don’t think the outrage is so much over “some goy is wearing a kippa” as “missionaries are dressing up as Jews in order to convert us”. Because that’s basically what JfJ is- Christians painting a Jewish veneer on Christianity in order to trick Jews into thinking that they’re still practicing a form of Judaism.

So, when Matthew is making that argument, he’s one of the Four Evangelists, but come forward 2,000 years and it’s putting a Jewish veneer on Christianity to trick Jews.

It just popped into my head as a response, as Matthew seems to be the writer most interested in explaining how Jesus fits into Judaism. I don’t think I’m very serious about it.

[Broomstick]

Yes, well, the Jews that read Matthew and think “hey, this is great, think I’ll join this club” are called “Christians”.

It’s not that I have a problem with who the Jews for Jesus crowd are worshiping, the problem I have is that they’re claiming their religion is Jewish and it’s NOT - it’s Christian. It’s false pretenses.

[Kimstu]

@Malleus_Incus_Stapes

With Jews for Jesus, I don’t think the outrage is so much over “some goy is wearing a kippa” as “missionaries are dressing up as Jews in order to convert us”. Because that’s basically what JfJ is- Christians painting a Jewish veneer on Christianity in order to trick Jews into thinking that they’re still practicing a form of Judaism.

I agree that usually, Jewish outrage over so-called Messianic Judaism is primarily about the evangelizing aspect. But the cite I linked to in the post where I brought it up was specifically and explicitly criticizing Messianic Judaism as a form of “cultural appropriation” of Judaism.

[Siam_Sam]

For the sake of alliteration, may I suggest, “Fuck the Fashion Fuzz”?

[octopus]

@BigT

For fuck’s sake. There is a perfectly legitimate argument there. The people in those countries don’t regularly experience racism, while those in our country do. Hence they are going to be more sensitive to perceived racism. It is disingenuous that asking one group means they speak for the other group.

It’s like asking people in Africa if something that has black people eating watermelon, fried chicken, and using that blackface accent is racist. They may completely lack the context to know it is racist. I remember a racist video about wanting to date a Japanese woman that Japanese people had no problem with, but Japanese Americans could see all the racist stereotypes. Everyone tended to agree it was racist in the US, even though Japanese people didn’t get it, because they lacked the social context.

Does that mean the dress really is a problem? Not necessarily. But it’s a perfectly valid point that the cultures are different and you can’t call upon one and have it speak for the other. Asking mainland Chinese people misses the entire point. They need to actually ask Chinese Americans to see if this is a widespread belief.

My own belief is simply that the story would not have blown up so badly if there was nothing to it. I’ve seen plenty of people say dumb things that no one agreed with. They get a small argument there, but then they are ignored. At most, they may wind up as a single story in one of those places that specifically looks for “SJWs are taking over” news. But then it dies.

That this is continuing means there’s still real controversy over the subject. That it keeps happening suggests that we’ve still not worked it out. And, since we haven’t, that means mockery doesn’t help. Mockery leads to people feeling bullied, which leads to them only becoming louder.

For a lot of people, this is probably about much, much more than a stupid dress that probably isn’t a real problem.

Fried chicken is good man. It’s real good. Ever been to Popeye’s?

[Voyager]

@Morgenstern

Let’s point out to all the people in the friggen world wearing Levi’s that they are stealing our culture.

I live in the Bay Area. You people in SoCal wearing Levis are stealing our culture.
Not to mention the 99% of people I saw in Hong Kong in western clothes.
Hell, they even stole our malls. :eek:

[Voyager]

@BigT

It’s like asking people in Africa if something that has black people eating watermelon, fried chicken, and using that blackface accent is racist. They may completely lack the context to know it is racist. I remember a racist video about wanting to date a Japanese woman that Japanese people had no problem with, but Japanese Americans could see all the racist stereotypes. Everyone tended to agree it was racist in the US, even though Japanese people didn’t get it, because they lacked the social context.

When I lived in the Congo the Congolese considered American blacks as Europeans. The act of asking that question is either stupid or racist (or both) since it implies that all people of a color are the same, no matter how long ago their cultures diverged.

[Trafalgar_Laura]

My wife told me today that she thinks the actual reason the guy was mad about the dress was because of its sexy cut; that despite his protestations of defending the freedom of women, he actually dislikes it because he wants to control women, and frowns on such a sexy qipao.

I… uh, I am not sure I buy into this, but it was a take on it that I hadn’t seen yet. My wife’s understandably more sensitive about the issue of sexism in Chinese culture.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I was really confused about where this “sexy cut” thing came up, since the dress looked pretty modest to me, but then I looked at the pics from Twitter and realized there’s a pretty high slit. Are they usually like that? (This is not in any way to suggest that there’s anything wrong with that).

[Trafalgar_Laura]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I was really confused about where this “sexy cut” thing came up, since the dress looked pretty modest to me, but then I looked at the pics from Twitter and realized there’s a pretty high slit. Are they usually like that? (This is not in any way to suggest that there’s anything wrong with that).

Nah, that would definitely be a deliberately ‘sexy’ qipao. For a formal one, I linked earlier to pictures of how Peng Liyuan often dresses. Tiny little hint of a slit near the ankle, very modest.

[Guinastasia]

Here’s another article, this one from The Atlantic.