Wouldn’t stocks or the pillory be the most appropriate punishment?
Not really having an opinion on the possible political motives behind the vandalism, I just want to say that “Fuck the Plymouth Rock Vandals” would be a kick-ass band name.
Or, alternatively, we could just leave this and similar rock graffiti in place, to be revered as ancient sacred petroglyphs by our descendants some 20,000 to 40,000 years from now, just as we revere and preserve the petroglyphs made by our Neolithic ancestors some 20,000 to 40,000 years ago.
Who said anything about Salem or witch trials? Where did that even come from?
They weren’t big on religious tolerance. This is known. They were quite literally Puritans. Their legal structure was based not only on English common law but on their religious beliefs. There were real restrictions on the religious beliefs of residents. The “Scarlet Letter” for adulterers was quite real. Even their more democratic structure was due to their belief that democracy was ordained by God. Forcible conversions were not unknown. And certainly they put on the books laws that made it very inconvenient at times not to convert.
We like to tell origin myths about the Pilgrims establishing their colony escaping religious persecution. And, to a considerable extent, this is true. But they really weren’t keen on extending that sort of consideration to people who did not share their own beliefs when they got put in charge themselves. “Freedom” for them was freedom to themselves repress others in their preferred manner. I wasn’t really joking. We Americans have inherited that attitude and there are people (some on this very board) who have argued along the lines that their freedoms are abridged if they can’t force others to share in their beliefs.
Better: “Fuck and the Plymoth Rock Vandals.” Except the lead singer will insist that they aren’t “Fuck”, just like Hootie insisted that he wasn’t Hootie.
Probably just some stoners.
Stone the stoners!
Let’s always remember to appreciate our historical treasures and artifacts. We should never take the Plymouth Rock for granite.
I disagree with that sediment
They could have just covered it with paper.
Whoever graffiti-ized the rock sucks big time, but I can’t help but be reminded of how the late Tony Horwitz described it in the beginning of A Voyage Long And Strange:
It just occurred to me that Fuck the Plymouth Rock Vandal probably lives by the sea. The authorities should look for them in Honalee.
Yes, it’s utterly underwhelming when you see it in person. The reproduction of the Mayflower is pretty cool though.
While this vandalism sucks (I heart Tony/suc me/stupid stuff) … there is a good reason to vandalize that insignificant rock. It’s not the “real” rock" and it represents centuries of suffering that have been protested the last… decade? Something to think about the next time people in the USA sit down for the 4th of July for a BBQ or in November for a Thanksgiving feast.
The Thanksgiving Day Massacre...Or, would you like Turkey with your genocide? yeah, I know they aren’t the best site to cite… but I bet any of the NA cites would have even worse particulars to share as they have an invested interest in sharing/investigating/reporting the truth that has been whitewashed.
Sorry… the Dope has been pretty much inaccessible for me this week and caught me on a “I can drink!” night.
And meanwhile, Native Americans were raiding settlements for slaves, murdering children and Abe Lincoln’s grandfather, stampeding buffalo herds off cliffs, and introducing tobacco, while bearing a history of ritual human sacrifice. What’s your point?
Oh that makes everything okay right?
You’re going to blame the tobacco industry on them. That’s some good propaganda.
Agreed.
But Plymouth is a nice little town, though.
My point is nobody is innocent.
I’m not a MAGA thug, and I would love to see Bernie Sanders become president, but I have to agree with the Trumptards for one thing. Enough with the white man bashing already.
All this pissing and moaning about how we should make Thanksgiving a day of national mourning, and all the Founding Fathers were evil slaveholders and rapists, and how no one ever mentions America’s many many egregious genocidal sins, and all history is a total whitewash is bullshit. We aren’t talking about the bad stuff White America has done? We talk so much about it that I’m fucking sick of it.
How many times do we hear about the smallpox blankets? You would think that white America made a habit of handing out contaminated blankets to Native Americans at every fucking treaty negotiation the way some people some tell it. There’s only one incident where this was even a thing, but still, that whole epidemic disease that wiped out most of the indigenous population was obviously premeditated genocide, right? Even though germ theory wasn’t even thought of then.
It’s this sort of stuff that adds fuel to the Trump campaign. Please, for the love of whatever passes for God, concentrate on the future, and quit bitching about the past.
Just because someone mentions something bad that some white people did in the past does not mean they are attacking white people.
Surely you’ve heard it said that white people should not feel guilty about what other white people did in the past. That we should not feel like those bad guys are “us.” Well, the same logic works in this case. Why should I feel like saying that these white people in the past did something bad is a slight on me as a white person? Should I feel affinity towards them because of the color of my skin?
No, the only reason to feel that way is if I thought the speaker was racist towards white people–if I thought the reason for bringing up bad things some white people did in the past was to say something bad about all white people. But this is an unlikely case. I don’t know about mistymage, but most of the people saying the things she said are white people themselves. And there is no other sign that they are racist towards white people, as they have white friends, white loved ones, and otherwise treat white people as equals.
Yes, the smallpox story is inaccurate. And I have no problem with people debunking it. But you aren’t merely debunking it. You’re using it as part of a narrative of people attacking “White America.” You assume the motives are that some people hate “White Americans.” But it’s not. The reason the idea of the smallpox blankets caught on is due to the science of memetics. In short, it’s because it encapsulates a couple true ideas: (1) that the European colonists greatly mistreated Native Americans, conquering them rather than just making their own settlements. And (2) that a lot of the killing was not through warfare but disease, which allowed for easy conquest. The story did not spread because people hated “White America”–hell, it was white people who spread it, for centuries now.
Thing is, this says nothing about what mistymage said, which is that the celebration of Plymouth Rock is celebrating some colonists who did a lot of shitty things to the native peoples. And your attempt at a rebuttal not only doesn’t say she’s wrong, but it leaves out something important. Those Native Americans only did that because they were fighting back against the invaders. Sure, we may object to their tactics today, but there is a material difference between the conquerors who come in and take from others and the conquered who attempt to stop them.
But, again, this doesn’t attack you or me as a white person. The whole “White America” concept is poor at best. It creates this narrative of a common white people in America. But that doesn’t exist. The people considered white back then aren’t the same as now. The Irish, Italians, Greeks, Slavic peoples, Russians, etc were not considered white. And our skin color didn’t change. It’s just that “white” is the term for everyone who gets accepted as part of the majority in certain nations. It’s why there’s a debate on whether Jewish people count as white. It’s why light skinned Hispanic people are often not considered white.
The whole concept is one that lends itself to “white grievance politics,” the idea that white people face some level of widespread persecution for being white. But we don’t. People tend to feel that way because non-white people are being more accepted, and that feels like something is being taken away. But it isn’t.
Or, a more sympathetic issue, is that the working class in America are feeling persecution, and the white people are mistaking that as persecution for being white, rather than because we/they’re poor. And it doesn’t help that both major political parties are paying attention to corporate interests. For the Democrats, that means that our message for the working class has been stomped out, leaving minority issues in the front. I can understand why that may lead people to think that the Democrats only care about non-white people.
And, for that reason, I can see deemphasizing some of this stuff temporarily to help. But that’s different from treating it as a legitimate grievance. Saying that we should consider the history of the things we celebrate is not a bad thing. It is not an attack.
I hope this all makes sense. I started out upset that you could even believe the “white grievance” crap, but wound up sort agreeing with you that maybe we focus on it too much. But, at the same time, I do want you to explore why you feel that “White America” is being attacked. Why do you buy into that narrative?
Because that narrative is the one that the white nationalist exploit. A “White America” suggest that there is a white nation (common group of people) inside of America with their own grievances and issues. It gives them a foothold to start pushing the idea that it is those outside of “White America” that are the problem.
I do not want to further that narrative.
Here’s more about how “who is white” changed, and why. Basically, non-white immigrants fought to be considered white because it was better than being considered “colored.”
This was the last blow against the idea of a “White America” for me. If I wanted to look at anything, it would be the 11 nation theory. It’s a lot more legitimate than seeing white people as a group.
(And if someone says something negative about the history of greater Appalachia, I still don’t get offended. They aren’t me. I only get offended a bit when they try to imply I’m inferior because I’m a “hillbilly.”)