Fuck You, Agape Press

[Siege]

Please excuse the hijack. Little Plastic Ninja, I was in a similar position to your friend’s about a decade ago. In my case, things got nasty enough that I was hospitalized close to catatonic with depression. I survived, as did my faith. If you’d like to take this off line, my e-mail address is in my profile. Please feel free to use it.

Getting back to the OP, here’s what bothers me about anti-homosexual attitudes. When I was a teenager, I was told I was ugly, unacceptable, unlovable. If I smiled at a fellow (I think most of you know I’m a straight woman), that was an insult. The culture I lived in wasn’t big on the concept of sin, but certainly I was treated like it was wrong for me to like someone or for me to want someone to like me. Can those of you who are heterosexual imagine what it’s like to live like that? To know that if anyone did have the courage to ask you out, they’d be subjected to ridicule? When I was 25, I finally realized the fellow who was my best friend was in love with me. He’d been telling me that for three years, but it took that long to sink in. When I realized he was, it took a few days for my mind to be able to process that information. The concept that someone might voluntarily love me was simply not in my mental vocabulary.

My point is this. When I read that homosexuality is a sin, or worse, an abomination, I see people doing to others what was done to me. When I was in my 20’s, I thought I could live without love. I thought I had to. When I was in my 30’s, I finally realized that humans weren’t meant to do so. “It is not good for man to be alone,” God says way back in Genesis 2. Why then, is it good for a man to be alone if he is a homosexual? I have never met Gobear or Matt McL, or Priam, but I hope to some day. Even now, knowing them as only words on my monitor, there is nothing anyone can say which can convince me that they are unworthy of the same love Polycarp receives from Skulldigger or which I hope to experience myself, some day. If I am sinning for believing that, and moreso for not repenting of it, so be it. I accept the consequences.

Sorry if I’ve followed a short hijack with a long one, but I have said what I think must be said. If I’m wrong, well, I’d calculate how many times I’ve been wrong, but I think I’d break Apos’s calculator again! :o

CJ

[Homebrew]

*Originally posted by Little Plastic Ninja *
**Then do you believe that members of a religion that does not venerate the Christian God (or, let’s be fair, the same God venerated by Christians, Jews, and Muslims) are not truly married? **

I don’t think that is Polycarp’s statement of belief, Little Plastic Ninja. He was attempting to illustrate a point about the use of quote marks and how they affect the meaning of a sentence. His manufactured statement was as an example, but I’m confident that is not his personal opinion. He seems frighteningly competent at channeling a certain now Banned poster, though.

[Polycarp]

Correctomundo, Homebrew. Sorry, LPNinja, I thought it was clear from the way I put that post together that I was manufacturing a quote (and made sure to say I was) that exemplified a former poster here – who is not around to respond to your analysis of “his” post.

Homebrew, I disagree strongly with a number of stances taken by that poster and his wife, but they and we nonetheless regard each other as good friends, and they have proven their goodwill and friendship to me time and again, even as we were in the process of disagreeing vehemently. While I don’t agree with much of what he says, I can understand his thinking, respect the integrity with which he posts (if not, sometimes, the tone! ;)), and am quite positive that hatred is not among his motivations in holding the stances he does. I wish I could say that for a lot of the folks who hold similar stances!

[iampunha]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
Homebrew, I disagree strongly with a number of stances taken by that poster and his wife, but they and we nonetheless regard each other as good friends, and they have proven their goodwill and friendship to me time and again, even as we were in the process of disagreeing vehemently.

I’ve been wondering about this for a while, Poly, and perhaps you will be able to answer this here (or, if you prefer email, that’s fine too. Or neither. I’m just damn curious).

Given how many members of this board you are friends with/regard in very high esteem (or however that phrase goes;)), and given the extreme lack of regard for those people that those two displayed (the most recent threads that contributed in no small part to the poster’s banning, and I doubt his wife will come back again), how do you reconcile this friendship with their treatment of your GLBT friends here? I would think it a sign of their goodwill if, for one, they had been willing not to spew their crap wherever they went, as they were wont to do without cessation or even regard for any feeling but their own.

While I don’t agree with much of what he says, I can understand his thinking, respect the integrity with which he posts (if not, sometimes, the tone! ;)), and am quite positive that hatred is not among his motivations in holding the stances he does.

I don’t think it was his personal hatred of non-hets so much as a perceived (on his part) attack by them on “God’s law”, including but not limited to “special rights”, marriage, non-discrimination policies etc. That, along with a steadfast refusal to examine as possibly valid any viewpoint that might differ with his at all, made debating with him (assuming that he was debating and not merely witnessing in threads about GLBT issues) rather less than enjoyable/fruitful.

And it doesn’t hurt, of course, that they carried the “This is a Christian nation founded by fundamentalist christians who didn’t intend for anyone to choose homosexuality” banner like they got paid for it more than professional athletes.

I will leave the matter of the integrity of his posts to someone (meaning to cast no aspersions on you here … I have a very difficult time thinking about either of them objectively) who is able to examine them with more a loving heart than, at this point, I am able to muster.

[Polycarp]

My impression is that, founding their belief system on “Bible-believing Christianity,” they’re convinced that God loves all people who turn to Him, regardless of race, creed, color, or sexual orientation, but that He hates sin in all forms, including, according to their understanding, the violation of His commands against sexual relations between two men or two women.

And they themselves, trying to follow His example, are not (AFAIK) opposed to anti-discrimination laws for gay people – there is a Pit thread in which he came out explicitly in favor of civil unions for gay couples who wish to enter into them – but that he believes that gay people pursuing their “lifestyle” (for lack of a better word) are engaging in sin, and it’s his Christian duty to encourage them away from it. Add to this the fact that both he and his wife are blunt in saying what it is that they believe (not necessarily a bad trait) and that he feels strongly that it’s his duty to defend his wife whenever she gets into an argument (often, due to that bluntnss) and that he has a quick temper, and you have the mix that’s led to a number of our past trainwrecks.

But yes, I’d like to see Scotticher or Siege or Triskadecamus critique my POV here – I’m convinced that they’re decent people with loving hearts and a staunch stance that is not motivated by hatred in any way, but a lot of that is based on personal, off-board relations.

[Bippy_the_Beardless]

From the article

“some people are already announcing that this is the last straw [and] they’re leaving the Episcopal Church.”

Good riddence!